An examination of Michael Card

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jude, May 22, 2003.

  1. Jude

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    Michael Card has been criticised for doing an ecumenical album with the Roman Catholic John Michael Talbot. (see below from a 1997 article). What do you think? Should Christians support this kind of thing?


    CHRISTIAN MUSIC

    Churches Tune Out Ecumenical Duet


    Christian musicians Michael Card and John Michael Talbot have met scattered resistance to their recent joint recording Brother to Brother and to an associated eight-city concert tour.

    Card is an evangelical Protestant who has recorded 18 albums. Talbot is a Roman Catholic monk who has recorded 34 albums. Brother to Brother (Myrrh Records) features a dozen of their best-known songs.

    A few evangelical entities that have welcomed Card or Talbot as solo musicians have resisted the joint project. Grace Community Church in Tempe, Arizona, canceled a Card-Talbot concert. Radio station KTLF-FM in Colorado Springs refused to promote a Card-Talbot concert in Denver. A Protestant church in Toronto canceled a solo concert by Talbot. Church leaders declined to specify their reasons.

    Moody magazine turned down an ad for the recording, and Moody Bible Institute's bookstore would not sell it. Moody Executive Editor Bruce Anderson told Religion News Service that Moody "is distinctly and purposely Protestant in its roots and supports and traditions, and I think, having heard John Michael Talbot, there would be a degree of discomfort with the message."

    As they released the album, both musicians said they expected some criticism. "What affected me most were letters I got from people who felt hurt and betrayed," Card told CT. Card says he has received 40 letters from people expressing hurt about the project—but he also has received a dozen letters describing reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants because of the album.
     
  2. Multimom

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    My only comment, "How Blessed it is for men to walk in unity."

    If you believe that all catholics are lost then this is a huge opportunity for Card to minister to Talbot.

    I listened to John Michael Talbot when I was in college majoring in music. He is clearly a gifted musician who wants to glorify God with his gifts.

    I would attend a concert because both are worshipping the same God. Both are using their gifts to his glory.

    Shame on protestants for acting like Catholics have the plague. What better way to minister salvation by grace than to group a evangelical christian with a well know and recognized catholic monk.
     
  3. AdoptedDaughter

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    Not all Catholics are lost, but not all are saved either. In the same way, not all Baptists are lost, neither are they all saved.
     
  4. ScottEmerson

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    I think it is great. Both are awesome, and both are determined to reach the world to Christ. Jesus Christ saved me and made me a Christian, not a Protestant. I don't understand the commotion.
     
  5. Mike McK

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    More power to 'em.

    Christ transcends denominatonal bounderies.
     
  6. D28guy

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    The commotion is because the Roman Catholic Church, to many people, is not just a different branch of Christianity.

    To many, its actually no different than the Jehovahs Witnesses or the Mormons. The heresies are different ones than in those groups, but its still a different gospel.

    Not the true one.

    God bless,

    Mike

    [ May 23, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: D28guy ]
     
  7. DanielFive

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    Originally postsed by Scott Emerson
    Another example of a well meaning Christian ignoring Scripture and plowing on ahead with what he thinks seems right, where have we seen that before? Perhaps these two quotes from John Michael Talbot will help everyone to understand the commotion.

    John Micheal Talbot: charismatic Roman Catholic who prays to Mary and speaks in tongues. In his book Simplicity, he states, "Personally, I have found praying the Rosary to be one of the most powerful tools I possess in obtaining simple, childlike meditation on the life of Jesus Christ." In 1996 he produced a joint venture album with Michael Card. Talbot said, "Doing this project has enabled us to become real friends. And along the way, the denominational lines have become really meaningless to me, and to Michael, too." (CCM Magazine, July 1996)

    Talbot: "The Holy Spirit is filling His people with simple love to prepare them for the work of unity….I am also feeling the presence of Mary becoming important in my life….I feel that she really does love me and intercedes to God on my behalf…. I am to tear down my sin through penance (CCM Magazine, Nov. 1984, p. 47)

    Originally postsed by MikeMcK
    And how long before praying to Mary transends denominational boundaries?

    Originally posted by Scott Emerson
    Michael Card: "There is an essential part of the Gospel that is never going to sell. The Gospel is good news, but it is also bad news; you are a sinner and you are hopeless. How is a multi-million dollar record company going to take that?"

    Michael Card seems more determined to keep on the right side of his record company.

    The blind leading the blind.

    Enda
     
  8. Travelsong

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    I don't have a problem with it at all. I have known catholics whose devotion to Christ put many protestants to shame. Cetainly there remains a colossal doctrinal gulf between the two, but I see no reason for both sides to ostrasize eachother. My wifes grandmother is a devout catholic, and I am certain she is a child of God. When we visit, this woman is always happy to fellowship and share what the lord is doing in her life.

    There are many many problems with the catholic faith, but I think it's important to recognize the common ground that all true believers share: That Christ is the son of the living triune God (and is God), that He was born of immaculate conception, and that belief in Him is the only way to ever lasting life. One true sign of apostate cults is that they ALWAYS twist and deny these basic core beliefs, the catholic church does not.

    Like Mike said, "more power to 'em."
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    I loved Card's duet with Talbot. Talbot is a very gifted musician and sets psalms to music that are uplifting to my spirit.

    Talbot's theology is suspect at best. Does not change the fact that psalms set to music are a blessing. :cool:
     
  10. ScottEmerson

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    Michael Card: "There is an essential part of the Gospel that is never going to sell. The Gospel is good news, but it is also bad news; you are a sinner and you are hopeless. How is a multi-million dollar record company going to take that?"

    Michael Card seems more determined to keep on the right side of his record company.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think you understand that quote very well. Michael Card has never been interested in making money or being the top of the charts. If you were to hear Michael Card, read his lyrics, or understand where he is coming from, you would see that he is eschewing multi-million dollar recording companies, and instead letting the gospel ring out clear.
     
  11. Travelsong

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    It's much easier to pass judgement than actually listen to what Card and Talbot have done.
     
  12. DanielFive

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    In fairness Bob, don't you think it's a little more than suspect. How would you define heresy?

    Enda
     
  13. ScottEmerson

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    In fairness Bob, don't you think it's a little more than suspect. How would you define heresy?

    Enda
    </font>[/QUOTE]Catholicism isn't heresy. From the dictionary: "An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine."

    Heresy to me is something that is unorthodox. It is also something that cannot exist with salvation. Arianism and GNosticism would fall as heresies, even perhaps Pelagianism. Catholicism is not. Neither, for that reason, are the "Oneness" group to which Phillips, Craig, and Dean are a part of.

    I may not agree with them, but they are not heresies, no more than the anti-CCM people are.
     
  14. DanielFive

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    I see its all right for you to refer to a dictionary when it suits. I don't know how much you know of catholic doctrine, but as an ex-catholic myself I can assure you that much of it is heresy.

    Of course if you allow the RC church to define what heresy is then I, along with Martin Luther etc. would be considered a heretic.

    Heresy is holding to a fundamental error in doctrine.

    This remark hardly merits response, I've overlooked some of your remarks because of your age but you are pushing me to the limit.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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  16. Travelsong

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  17. ScottEmerson

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    I know a fairly good amount about Catholicism. Are there things that are not necessarily Biblical? Yes, I think that there are. Are there things that they believe that would cause them not to be saved? No, I don't think that there are.

    Many Catholics thought that Luther was a heretic. It did not make him one. Many Protestants think that Catholics are heretics. That does not make them one.

    And I would say that I am of the opinion that the errors in their doctrine are not errors "unto death." That is, their errors in doctrine are not fundamental.

    Don't let anyone despise you because of your youth. I think that Paul's words to Timothy are quite appropriate here. If you would examine what I said, you will notice that I did not say that those who were against CCM were heretical. Of course, the RCC is not either.

    I wonder which of my posts or statements that I have made have been juvenile, as enda has accused them of being. Would anyone else be kind enough to correct me of my ways, if, indeed, I am acting childish in my posts? (For the record, I do not feel that I have been - I think enda is just using it as an ad hominem for lack of a better argument.)
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Roman Catholicism is an orthodox Christian religion. "Orthodox" = accepts the traditional doctrines that comprise christianity
    </font>
    • Bible is God's Revelation</font>
    • God is manifest in Three Persons - Father, Son, Spirit</font>
    • Man is sinful and needs salvation</font>
    • Heaven and hell</font>
    Now does that mean some of its doctrines are not wrong or evil? Of course they are. Rejected and repudiated by true believers. But I'd be careful about using the word "heresy" too readily.
     
  19. D28guy

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    Bob,

    You said...

    But dont you see, you have left something out. Something pretty important.

    The Gospel!

    The gospel of Jesus Christ has been correctly summed up by saying that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

    I have had catholics over the years, knowledgable catholics...seminary students, priests, and catechists...consistently argue that what I just posted up there, particularly the "faith alone" part, is a lie, and not true.

    That is a denial of the gospel.

    This is from the Council of Trent cursings...

    "If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).

    Canon 8. If anyone says that by the sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred ex opere operato, but that faith alone in the divine promise is sufficient to obtain grace, let him be anathema".


    The CC is here cursing the Tax Collector in the Temple, who cried "God, be merciful to me a sinner"....and whom Jesus Christ said was justified.

    "CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema."

    They are clearly adding "commandment keeping" to the gospel.

    In addition, the catholics, in their mind boggling amount of "veneration" of the human being Mary, have...by turning her into a co-redemptrix, co-mediatrix, supernatural "omni-present" being, who hears and answers all prayers directed to her, protects, guides, and performs miracles for those who "flee into her arms"...in essence created a counterfiet "Mary" and are engaging in a form of "goddess worship" towards her.

    These things, in my mind, are very, very foundational. These, in my mind, are not "periferals" that we are to "let our brother be fully convinced in his own mind" regarding.

    These are things that we cannot gloss over, or compromise, IMHO.

    These are things that seperate brothers from those outside the faith.

    God bless,

    Mike

    [ May 25, 2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: D28guy ]
     
  20. ScottEmerson

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    So, is it your opinion that a person who believes such things cannot enter the kingdom of heaven?
     

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