An Examination of Revelation 1:7: Futurism vs. Preterism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Jun 6, 2011.

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  1. Logos1

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    Revelation 1:7
    Common English Bible (CEB)
    Look, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye will see him, including those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him. This is so. Amen.

    Futurists look at this verse and believe that Christ will roll back the skies and fly down from heaven and every person will see him with their own eyes. To them it is assurance to hold on to that Christ will return in a literal, physical body to take the Saints home or rescue Jerusalem or whatever particular action is called for in a particular view of futurism.

    Of course you have to suspend any logical analysis of it for that statement for it to work.

    Every eye will see him—what about the people underground at work, riding subways, or sleeping, or those on the opposite side of the earth—obviously this view of the verse runs into problems right away.

    But if a literal, physical six foot (more or less) Jesus appeared in the sky even the people directly below him couldn’t see something as small as six feet long that high up.

    We know that this view of the verse can’t be right, right there, but wait it gets worse. Those who pierced him are the Roman soldiers at his crucifixion (or by extension those involved in his crucifixion such as the Jewish leadership) and these people are now 2,000 years old and still counting. Ouch.

    And, why is everybody (all the Jewish tribes) mourning when futurists claim the coming of the Lord is such a blessed event. If as futurists claim he comes to rescue the Jews they should be glad to see him not sad and tearful.
    At every point the futurist’s view of this verse breaks down upon simple examination.

    Nor is there any support else where in the bible for using this interpretation of the verse.

    Now let’s look at the preterist’s view of this verse.

    First there is support else where in the bible to guide the NT reader in how to interpret this verse based on what is found in the OT in Isaiah 19:1

    An oracle concerning Egypt.
    Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
    and comes to Egypt;
    and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
    and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

    Here no one has ever claimed to actually see God riding on a cloud. It is understood that the Assyrian army is the manifestation of God’s will. The frequent association of God and clouds speaks to God’s presence not his literally and physically standing on clouds.

    This verse fits the Preterist’s view of eschatology very well. The Roman army was the manifestation of the Lord’s judgment on Israel and his coming with the clouds indicates his presence in the events unfolding in 70 AD as his wrath was poured out on Jerusalem.

    The every eye will see him also fits perfectly with the Preterist’s view. While it would be impossible for every human eye to actually see Jesus for the reason’s mentioned above the Roman armies could be seen by all people in the Roman Empire which covers the territory associated with everyone. Everyone realized that the Roman armies were the manifestation of his will just as in Isaiah. They see with their mind, that is to say they understand, that the Roman armies are manifested by the Lord. Everyone understands that it is the work of the Lord unfolding in the Roman armies as they destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.

    You could say those who pierced him is a reference to the Roman soldiers who actually stuck the spears in his side, but it is probably more likely a reference to those responsible for the actions at the cross—the Jewish leadership. It would be easy enough for some of them to still be alive 40 years later when Christ returns and see Roman armies march on Jerusalem. It would be foolishness to suggest they are still alive today 2,000 years and counting to see the Lord return.

    And here we understand why all the Jewish tribes mourn because of him. He is not coming back to rescue them, but judge them and it is done with the crushing blows of the Roman armies.

    When an honest examination of this verse is done it can’t possibly work from a futurist’s perspective—it fails on all points, but everything about it works from the Preterist’s perspective.
     
  2. revmwc

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    Revelation 1:7 from Interlinear
    BE-PERCEIVING He-IS-COMING WITH THE CLOUDS AND SHALL-BE-VIEWING Him EVERY VIEWer AND WHO-ANY Him THEY-stab AND SHALL-BE-STRIKING (selves) ON Him ALL THE tribes OF-THE LAND YEA AMEN


    Be watching for He is coming with the clouds and those who see Him Every viewer (everyone) and any who stab Him, will strike themselves all the tribes of the earth will strike themselves.

    It appears those who pierce Him will see Him. Now who pierces Him?

    Notice in the inerlinear says "WHO-ANY Him they-Stab" when do they stab Him?

    Is it refering back to the soldiers that pirced His side? If that be the case how can you be sure thet were still in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. we know Pilate was no longer there.
    Was it the Jews of that day?
    Many of them may easily have passed away, and yet you say they all saw Him 70 A.D. they can easily see Him coming from their place in torments today, just as easy as they might have seen Him physically if ALL that pierced Him were still in Jerusalem in that day.

    But notice the term and tell me who stabs Him today?

    Those who mourn at His coming are those who now know He is the Lord and their fate for eternal sealed.

    Revelation 19:19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    They see Him coming and are ready to fight Him. Notice it doesn't say they are prepared to fight the Roman legions, they are prepared to fight Jesus who they see coming in the clouds.

    Why do they mourn at his coming again Revelation 19:
    20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Look at verse 21 why do they mourn, because they are put to death for their rejection of Christ and following the Beast and False Prophet.

    Then Christ sets up His Kingdom in Chapter 20 with the physically alive and those who were beheaded (put to death) in the Tribulation. The church age believers came with Him as the Bride and were clothed in white chapter 19 says.

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Revelation 4:4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    It appears the church is in Heaven as Chapter 4 begins.

    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    That means the church was snatched away at some point prior to His second coming. Revelation 3:5, 4:4 and then 19:14 show where the Church is during the Tribulation period.

    That means those who were saved during the Tribulation would be taken into the Kingdom and that would include the 144, 000 Jews who were converted at the begining and witnessed throughout the 7 years without ONE of them dieing. Amazing How God protects them through the 7 years.
     
  3. JesusFan

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    Couple of things here...

    God promise is that in the End times, Great day of the Lord, that he will arise to defeat enemies of Isreal, to be a Champrion for the Jewish peoples alive on earth at that time...

    NOT to bring Jews to judgement, destroying temple, them etc

    But to bring them to point of able to acknowledge Coming Back messiadh < jesus, as their real messiah, instead of false Messiah, AntiChrist...

    And the pouint about every eye on earth unable to be literally fulfilled...

    Are you saying God CANNOT do that feat, something is impossible for evn Him to perform and "pull off?"
     
  4. HankD

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    Seeing, hearing... with God all things are possible, He has done similar things in the past:

    Acts 2
    5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
    7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
    8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
    9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
    10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
    11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
    12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.​

    HankD​
     
  5. Logos1

    Logos1
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    revmwc

    revmwc,

    My gracious do tell talk about a reach—there is really no biblical basis to say anybody who is separated from God for eternity regardless of what that state of affairs maybe like would see him return from their vantage point in 70 AD. That is such pure speculation I won’t even bother with a rebuttal. If you wish to believe that I leave you to your beliefs.

    As for the term “all” nice try in twisting the term around, but no cigar. The use of all doesn’t mean every specific individual who was alive when he was crucified, but all those who are still alive in 70 AD would be aware of the Roman army destroying Jerusalem.

    No one would be stabbing him today—Christ is in heaven now and won’t be returning to earth in physical form for someone to stab him in the future.

    The church couldn’t be in heaven as chapter four begins. Christ returns at the end of Revelation and no humans would be in heaven until Christ returns. Even under your view that would be true. You believe that Christ won’t return until some time in the future therefore no human could yet be in heaven in the presence of God until Christ returns for the saved in his name.

    There is no basis for saying anybody was snatched away based on what is written in the bible—this is just dispensationalism run amok.

    Coming on white horses—now this would be metaphorical description not a literal event.

    You just can’t twist Rev 1:7 into anything credible to suggest a literal, physical return of Christ.

    Futurism has added yet another day of failure to its 2,000 years of failure again today. Any honest reading of the bible wouldn’t mock he words of Christ promising to come quickly in such a blatant manner. How many billions of years have to go by until you admit to futurism’s failure revmwc?
     
  6. Logos1

    Logos1
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    Jesusfan

    JF

    You don’t have any biblical support that he will come to defend the Jews at some point in the future.

    2 Thess 1:6 God repays those who afflict the Christians in Thessalonica. We know that is a reference to Jews of course and there are the verses in Rev 2 and 3 referring to Jewish affliction which also gets repaid to them when Babylon (Jerusalem) is destroyed in 70 AD.

    The only Jewish people mentioned in the bible are those who are in a covenant relationship with God and their covenant ends in 70AD with the destruction of the temple so any verse relevant to Jews would have to be fulfilled no later than 70 AD. No need to debate events after then.

    It’s not that God couldn’t do whatever he pleases—but there is no basis whatsoever to suggest he violates that laws of nature he setup in this regard. No instance you can point to when he did anything like that in the bible. Suggesting it merely exposes your desperation to twist the verse into something it is not.

    Another lazy post JF with only idle speculation with no scriptural support for the assertions.
     
  7. Logos1

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    HankD

    Hello Hank,

    That is almost unfuturistic of you to actually make your points with scripture. Will that get you in trouble with the other futurists.

    I think you have made a good point of how the Holy Spirit worked to allow all people to hear the gospel in their own tongue. This wasn’t trickery or faked, but real and as such it still conformed to the laws of physics that God setup to govern the universe.

    It is too far to try to stretch this into support for every physical eye seeing a man sized Jesus appearing in the sky. When the Christians spoke to others only those within earshot of them heard the Gospel in their native tongue—not those on the other side of the globe.

    Don’t you think the events in Acts are a far stretch to suspend the laws of nature to try and make Rev 1:7 a literal event?

    Take care
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    From Days of Vengeance , by Chilton
     
  9. HankD

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    No.

    RE: Revelation 1:7

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

    I do agree with one preterist view in the case of Revelation 1:7.

    We should take it in the "plain language" in which it was given especially in light of Acts 1:9-12 (another passage to be taken in its plain meaning) :

    Acts 1
    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

    The same Jesus who was taken visibly into heaven in the body in which He was crucified will come again in like manner as He was seen to leave.​

    Let me reiterate what I have said all along: Two things:
    Every view has it's difficulties.
    Every view discerns between the literal and the spiritual.​

    Personally, I would rather deal with the relatively few difficulties of futurism than the myriad of difficulties with preterism and it's "spiritualization" of the vast amount of prophetic scriptures pointing to the literal and bodily Second Coming of Christ instead of trying to substitute this same Jesus with Titus and the Imperial armies of Rome.​

    e.g.

    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.​

    Tom claims that Zechariah 14 speaks of the "second" Jerusalem, but the entire passage contains a multitude of precise and explicit details of this "second" Jerusalem with several geographic points, coordinates and landmarks, along with foreign nations, animals, gold, silver, apparel, horses, mules, camels, etc, etc...

    All these "plain meaning" details presumably a reflection of the "first Jerusalem".

    Of course and of necessity, preterism must spiritualize Zechariah 14 (and myriad other OT/NT prophecies) since to take it in it's plain meaning, including the explicit literal details, would destroy the theory of the AD70 Second Coming of Christ.

    HankD
     
  10. revmwc

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    Notice the interlinear for ALL who see hime "SHALL-BE-VIEWING Him EVERY VIEWer" who will view those who are alive to view, Satan and his angels will view His return, so how is it a stretch to thing that from their vantage point in Hell those who crucified Him want see Him, in fact I would think that with your "spiritual" view of everything that would be the very first thing you would accept.

    Notice in the inerlinear says "WHO-ANY Him they-Stab" when do they stab Him?
    Again not me twisting that is how the interlinear translated it. So those who reject Him today do they not stab Him crucify Him yet again. We as believers when we sin do we not crucify Him yet again
    Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

    Seems He is being stabbed today everytime you and I sin and everytime the unbeliever sins, He paid for the sins of Everyone in Every Generation, every sin stabs Him.

    The church not in Heaven? I see Him coming for the church before the Tribulation begins, but that is where He meets us in the air, as 1 Thessalonians tells us we will meet him in the air, as 1 Corinthians 15 tells us and 1 Corinthians 3 shows us receiving rewards in heaven before the Great White Throne occurs at the end of Revelation.
    In 1 Thessalonians the Greek word harpagEsometha is used translated in the KJV "caught up" the interlinear says it like this "SHALL-BE-BEING-SNATCHED" It then says where we are santched too "IN CLOUDS INTO meeting OF-THE Master INTO AIR AND this always TOGETHER to-Master WE-SHALL-BE. Before that it says we will simultanous Together with Them those who have died. Failry clear He is not talking about His coming at the end of Revelation, so when does 1 Thessaloninas take place when the trumpet sounds and the call is made. Notice REvelation 4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    He hears a voice and it sounds like a trumpet the command come up hither, while it was a call for John to come up hither it was also a showing of the church being called out and to heaven. Notice what he sees next;
    2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
    4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    Notice the 24 elders clothed in white raiment and having their reward. That shows the church in heaven for the events that occur after this point.
    1 Corinthians 3:
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    This occurs before the Great White throne seen at the end of Revelation and as Revelation 4 shows it has occured before the rest of the events in Revelation so it occurs 7 years prior to Christ 2nd coming.

    The Holy Spirit in His inspiration of the writters does a real good Job af scripture upon scripture, point upon point confirming Gods plan. It isn't metaphorical in every meaning.

    To say as you do that those in hell won't see His return well I believe Paul mad the point they would,
    Phillipians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    Notice He says things under the earth, which most believe hell is under the earth and even in Paul's day.
    It makes it clear they can and will see from hell the Lord return at His second coming.
     
    #10 revmwc, Jun 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2011
  11. JesusFan

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    Well...

    Guess that when the Messiah comes back to fight on behalf of His people, in jerusalem, when ALL armies of the Earth gathered up to fight against them...

    When it says the LORD HIMSELF shall fight on their behalf...

    Guess God must be into lazy and vague postings also, as He had it recorded down in Bible!
     
  12. thomas15

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    This is true because some dude who posts on the internets said so.
     
  13. JesusFan

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    Didn't God promise Daniel that in "end times/last days" Micheal the prince of your people will arise and fight for Isreal?
     
    #13 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2011
  14. Logos1

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    Hank - obviously we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I see futurism being full of contradictions and holes and preterism being consistent and neatly tying together various books of the bible.

    As far as Acts 1 one goes—note this passage is about the ascension of Christ not his return. In verse 11 the two witnesses show up to verify that Christ came into heaven not that he is coming back to earth. Since verse 9 explains that Christ disappeared from their sight how would they know he went to heaven if witnesses had not told them so? What magic would they use to know where he went—what would their testimony be worth since they admit they can’t see where he went?

    In Zechariah 14: 3 the translation you choose says God fights against those nations; however, other more literal translations say he fights with those nations which is a very different thing to say. Fight with could mean fighting against or fighting with as an ally or fighting with as in a tool wielded to fight with. Two out of three of those possibilities means he is fighting against Jerusalem not helping them out.

    As for verse 4 meaning standing on the Mount of Olives—I don’t see how this could really mean Jesus’ literal two feet will stand on the Mount of Olives in the future. It could be spiritual or it could represent the Tenth legion who camped on the Mount and attacked Jerusalem from there with their catapults hurling 100 pound stones just as it was prophesied.

    I don’t think Zechariah 14 spiritualizes the events of 70 AD at all, but gives a very literal prophecy of the events happening then.
     
  15. Logos1

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    revmwc,

    To try and say that those who stabbed him in Rev. 1:7 means future (as in us alive today) who will be alive for some future coming of Christ lacks any biblical support of any sort. You are just going to have to do a better job of twisting verses if you want to impress me or expect me to bother with answering that.

    He doesn’t make us fly up into the sky. This air aer means the air as in the spiritual realm—not the sky or atmosphere. If Paul meant the sky he would have said ouranos. Paul is saying caught up into the same spiritual realm as God.

    When you said
    “To say as you do that those in hell won't see His return well I believe Paul mad the point they would,
    Phillipians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; “

    You could work several points in and around this in regards to judgment, but no where in there does it say, hint, or suggest, that they see Christ make any kind of return to earth spiritual or literal.

    You said
    “Notice He says things under the earth, which most believe hell is under the earth and even in Paul's day.
    It makes it clear they can and will see from hell the Lord return at His second coming.”

    LOL—this is just a joke. If for the sake of argument one said they were under the earth it in no way implies they can see anything happening on earth.

    Most believed in Paul’s day that the earth was flat. As a point on the compass you may well have a point that they thought of heaven as being directionally upward and hell (for lack of a better word) as being downward; however, I believe I shall have to go with the belief that these are spiritual realms so thinking of them as having specific directions is basically pointless.

    I see we have added yet another day of failure to the futurist notion of Christ coming back in the future. So revmwc how long are you going to hold on to an embarrassingly failed futuristic view of a literal return 2,000 years and counting from the time Christ and the apostles spoke about the return of Christ being soon.
     
  16. Logos1

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    As I was saying Lazy

    JF

    You continue to make my case that your post are lazy and to serve what end I’m not sure.

    I’ll be glad to answer the post you had today if you show me an actual verse that can be used in support of what you claim.

    Otherwise I don’t see why I should bother. If your post aren’t important enough to you to find a scripture reference then why should they be important enough for me to answer.

    I could just claim anything I want and claim it’s in the bible just as well as you can. Where’s the beef JF?
     
  17. Logos1

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    Thomas

    Finally we have found some common ground we agree on. I’d say that some dude posting his futuristic fantasies on the internet about dispensationalism is a great case in point.

    Basically that is what we have in John Darby—just a dude who went around to prophecy conferences and did his dog and pony show about his new way of rightly dividing the Word.
     
  18. HankD

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    Right, this is the usual path.

    It starts out about the ascension but quickly switches to His return

    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Doesn't matter. That He went into heaven is added information to the fact of verse 11 that He will be coming back in like manner (as proclamied in subsequent preaching).

    Acts 3
    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times ofrefreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

    Out of 13 English translations I examined I found 1 which agrees with you - The Darby Bible 1884.

    I'll stay with the Acts 1:11 promise.

    Now thats an amazing statement.

    Anyway I guess thats it for now unless you want to rebut but I probably won't respond, what else can be said that hasn't been said?

    HankD
     
  19. revmwc

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    So when Jesus spoke of the people in Torments seeing the ones in Paradise he wasn't describing those in torments seeing what goes on in the spiritual world? Even though I believe Paradise abode of Hades was transfered to Heaven, those soul in torments will see Him as He returns as much as those from earth will.

    Please provide the proof that they believed the world was flat in that day.
    Just because it was prevelant in the 1400's A.D. doesn't mean it was prevelant teaching at the time. Scripture seems to bear out a round earth.

    I will continue to believe in His return until:
    1. I die
    or
    2. until He returns.

    The thing is if you are truly saved, I am not questioning it because I would say that to anyone I don't know your heart only your testifying you are, you to will meet Him in the air even if you don't believe it.
     
  20. JesusFan

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    Well, as least you are able to "mirror" for all of us to see the "love of the Lord"...

    Question for you concerns daniel Chapter 12

    God tells the Prophet that In last days , Micheal the prince arises to help and save the jewish peoples during a time of "great distress. like NONE ever before/simce" and that a resurrection will be happening at that time...

    Future event, or already done, if so, when was that in history past fulfilled?

    Also, God pretty specific on dating times from the "Abomination of Desolation" already fulfilled event. or still to come?
     
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