An honest question for post-trib, etc theologians

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by NaasPreacher (C4K), May 14, 2004.

  1. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I have come across something in my research of the early Irish Christian church and before I can come to a consensus I need to know is amil, post- trib, etc theologians are looking for the imminent return of Christ.

    I promise you, there is not trick here and I am not picking a fight, I just don't know.
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I gracious brother pointed out that my question may not be clear - here it is the way it should be.

    I have come across something in my research of the early Irish Christian church and before I can come to a consensus I need to know:
    Are amil, post- trib, etc. theologians looking for the imminent return of Christ?

    Thank you to my brother for pointing out the need to clarify [​IMG]
     
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    There is a big difference between Amil and post trib.

    Post-tribs, mid-tribs and pre-tribs are mostly all premillenial dispensationalists and Chiliasts. They just disagree as to the timing of the rapture in relation to the Trib.

    Amils, post-mils, preterists, etc. are generally not looking for the imminent return of Christ at all. They either believe he already came or is really not coming bodily. Perhaps I have over-simplified some of the views, but I hope that helps.

    Lacy

    BTW. There is another growing Pre-mil view that believes all 3 positions (Pre,mid, and post-trib) are true. It is called partial-rapture or harvest-rapture. This is my position
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I guess to make it clear I should ask, "Does anyone, other than a pre-trib, pre-mil theologian look for an imminent return of Christ?
     
  5. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Certainly the partial rapturist do.

    Lacy
     
  6. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    This isn't true. The vast vast majority of amils, post-mil etc believe in the future bodily return of Christ. Only the full-pretists believe it already happened.

    I'm not exactly sure about post-trib. Struggling with the immient return passages are the only thing that keeps me from taking this position.

    Amill is a mix bag. The majority of amill are "pessimistic amill" meaning they believe things will get worst and worst until Christ returns. They believe in the imminent return of Christ and make up the larger portion of Amill I believe.

    The optimisitic Amill, however, believe the Christian church will make inroads into converting large portions of the world, and in a lot of ways its impossible to disguish them from post-mill. However, they don't have any fix signs about how much we will covert, so a good many of them believe in the imminient return of Christ as well.

    Finnally, the Amills that believe in a future tribulation probably fall along the same lines as post-trib, and I don't know what they believe on this either. My church might fall into this camp so I should ask my elders.

    So to answer, yes:
    most amill
    some post-mils
    not sure about post-trib
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Would appreciate any help. I have come across a passage in "The Confessions of St Patrisk" (one of only two writings that we know are his) where he says he is looking for the soon to come advent of Christ.
     
  8. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    off topic post. I'll start a new thread.

    lacy
     
  9. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    To answer your question.

    No, that statement from Saint Patrick doesn't nessisarily make him pre-trib, pre-mil, which he probably wasn't.
     
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Just out of curiosity Pete, why would you claim that?
     
  11. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Sorry, my last post sounds terrible.

    Why do you think that Patrick was probably not pre-mil and/or pre-trib?
     
  12. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    Just the time he lived (385-461) and the background he came from. While pre-tribers have found vague references to a pre-trib theory in early writings (all debatable), the by far majority of any writings from this time period up til very recently had no concept of a pre-trib rapture.

    A few qualifications. It would not be conclusive if history could be proved one way or another, the only thing that matters is what is taught in the Bible. While history can serve as a guidepost to what was intrepreted by Christians for generations, it can also be misleading. The vast majority of writings from 500-1500 don't mention justification by faith either. Two, since Saint Patrick never wrote on the subject that I know of, I can't prove he wasn't pre-trib either. And while pre-tribs generally like to claim the early church was (obviously the apostles :D ) you can't simply assume someone like Saint Patrick was simply because we don't know. I think a better bet, given the general consensus across all Christiantom at the time, is that Saint Patrick was just as much in the dark about the pre-trib rapture as most Christians until about 170 years ago.
     
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Good thoughts, that is the ONLY reference to the coming of Christ in his limited writings. His poor Latin is apparently difficult to translate, but he does seem to have a real grasp of justification by faith though.

    Patrick was outside the realm of 5th century Christendom and was well acquainted with the scriptures. Still researching, but I think it is very possible that he came across the concept in his own studies. (BTW, their are endless debates as to his exact time and his place of birth, but your time period is the most accepted.)

    I appreciate your reply, I really sounded awful the way I put my question the first time [​IMG] .

    This is his quote, according to one translation - "...Jesus Christ is Lord and God, in whom we believe, and whose advent we soon expect to be..."

    My genuine curiosity is, what groups would have held to that teaching in the 5th century?
     
  14. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    I totally agree with that, he was a true Christian. God has always had his followers, even as the institutional church slid further and further into apostasy.

    It is, of course, possible that his own studies led him towards a pre-trib rapture. Can't be proven one way or another. When heros of the faith are short on writings, we have a tendency to write into their theology (via their own studies agaist the understanding of the time) our twentieth century IFB beliefs. Hence why I am suspecious.

    Same groups as today. However, I think your are reading imminecy to much in to that statement. Soon could mean tommorrow, after seven years (of tribulation) or even 40. Either way, amills would certainly agree and echo his statement today, as would most of Christomdom. I say this as one who attends an amill church (though not a belief I prescribe to).
     
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Thanks for the input, now I wish I had paid better attention in Latin class so I could know exactly what he had said :( .
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Actually, this is what I was looking for. Thanks!
     
  17. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber
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    This is my view on the issue. I believe that Christians will go thru the Tribulation mainly because it seems Christ said we would.

    Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    It seems Christ says after the tribulation at the sound of the Trumpet He will gather His elect. Paul said the following:

    1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Again we here the sound of the Trump will signal the rapture.

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

    This tells us that Christ will be on a cloud and will not yet set foot on the Earth when the Rapture accures. Than there is a span of time between the Rapture and the Mil reign of Christ this is when the Wrath of God is pored out on the Earth after the Wrath of God is poured out and the Devil is bound and the Anti Christ and Beast are tosed into the lake of Fire the Thousand year Reign of Christ begins
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    In General, i agree with Pete.
    Nobody really gave much thought to relative
    tribulation period judgments timing
    relative to the rapture/resurrection
    until they got enough vitamines to allow
    their mind to comprehend the matter.
    This occured about 1650 in England, later
    elsewhere.

    BTW, Was Patrick Roman Catholic, Easter
    Orotodox, Coptic, Nestorian, or Protestant.
    None of the above. These distinctions did
    not occur until after Patrick. He
    was just a Christian saved by grace
    type church age saint.
     
  19. Jacob Webber

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    I would like to add as long as you have Christ's first coming right you do not need to worry about the Second
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Jacob Webber -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    I guess you are a pan-rapturistist?
    Jesus is going to rapture/resurrect
    us at EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME. SO everything
    will pan out alright.
     

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