An Interesting Post Against Eternal Security

Romans 8:29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30. and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8:29. Hoti hous proegno, kai proorisen summorfous tes eikonos tou Huiou autou, eis to einai auton prototokon en pollois adelfois,
30. hous de proorisen, toutous kai ekalesen, kai hous ekalesen, toutous kai edikaiosen, hous de edikaiosen, toutous kai edoxasen.

Verse 29
Proegno = aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice

Proorisen = aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice

Einai = infinitive, present tense, active voice, accusative case

Verse 30
Proorisen = aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice

Ekalesen = aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice

Ekalesen = aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice

Edikaiosen = aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice

Edikaiosen = aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice


You asked, “Would you say that the verbs in Romans 8:29-30 are aorist past-perfect tense?” The answer, as evidenced above, is that there are NO verbs in Rom. 8:29-30 that are in the aorist past-perfect tense. As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as the aorist past-perfect tense.

Craig.
Let's check the context of Romans 8:28-30 shall we?

In verse 28 Paul uses the term 'them' to describe Christians. But in the next verse he uses the term 'whom' (singular). If this verse is really only about a past work of God, then who is this one person that got to Heaven that Paul is referring to?

Or could it be that Paul really wrote about every individual Christian as virtually every Biblical scholar would attest?

I am sorry though that you can't come up with a single promise from God that you can hang your hat on. That's quite sad really.

And BTW, how is your endurance work coming along?

Eph. 6:17

 

I would also point out that if we are as free to reject Christ after we are saved as we are before him, then logically we are still able to fall from grace after we get to heaven?

Of course the notion of symmetrical belief/unbelief is pure speculation...

 

Excellent analogy Squire!

 

Recently, you discuss about Father & son.

I suggest you, read Luke 15:11-32 talk about the prodigal son. At the first place, son was with his father, also, he was WITH his father. But, a son wants to leave his father, in his own freewill decision. Father does not make his son to staying with him. Father allows his son go. Father cannot force his son to stay. Father does really love his son so much. But, he cannot force his son to stay. Father allows his son leaves in his desire. Obivously, Luke 15:11-32 telling us, everyone of us have our freewill decision. God does not make us as robot or puppet.

Son decides want to leave his father, as he turns away from his father in the far journey. While the son is in the far journey, his life becomes misery, and dark like as he is in the world - sinful. Son realized, that he is lost, and very misery. So, he decided to repent os his ways, and turn back to his father. He give up his own ways of sin. He returns back to his father.

Father still love his son so much, he is not angry with his son, because he is long-suffering toward his son, await for his son come to repentance(2 Peter 3:9).

It tells us, when Father sees his son walking toward his house, what he is doing? Does it saying, that Father tells his son, 'Go away!'? No. it does not saying. It tells us, when Father sees his son walking toward father's house, he run right away immediately toward his son, and huge his son. Same with Jesus Christ, He still love us so much while anyone is backslidding.

Son tells his father, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am NO MORE worthy to be called thy son."- Luke 15:21 It tells us, a son realizes, that he sinned against his father, and he knows, that he is not worthy to be called son of father.

Father forgives his son's sin.

Son's brother returns back to home, and he puzzles, notice his house is full of celebration and party. So, brother asks the servant, what's going on. The servant tells him, his brother is return home, and father prepares meat and celebrate for his brother. Brother becomes angry. I believe Christ's purpose of the lesson teaches us about two brothers. One brother remain stay with his father, other brother running away, brother who staying with his father, he working so hard, and he thinks his brother does not desrve it to do for his father - nothing, make him feel less and unworthy. It shows us, that brother is jealous of his brother return back and celebrates on his bother, make him feel not important.

Father hears of his other older son becomes very upset about his young son. So, he called his two sons together. Father tells his older son, and saying, "Son, thou art ever with me, all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother WAS dead, and is alive AGAIN; and WAS [/B]lost[/B], and is FOUND." - Luke 15:31-32

Christ tells us, a son was 'alive' at the first place, while he was with his father, then son decides to leave his father, in his own freewill decision, then son become lost again. So, son have to repent of his sins toward his father, and he become 'alive' again. It speak of spiritual life.

What IF.... suppose, the son remain stay in the dark and lost, not decide return back to his father, what will happen to him? He will remain always lost and dead - spiritual death. Also, in other word, what IF... the son never turn back to his father, and remain lost all the way to his death(physical), what will happen to him? He shall always remain spiritual death - lost in hell without have repentance.

Luke 15:11-32 teaching us very clear talk about conditional.

Also, it teaches us, Christ never leave us, He always with us all the times. BUT, we easily can leave Christ in our freewill decision by being rebel against Christ, and also backslidding again. Do not blame on Christ for to cause any person to become lost again. That is person's responsiblity for making decision by freewill choice.

Often, I hear osas argue, impossible for a person to become unborn again.

My understand of John 3:3, 7 speak of, 'ye must be born again', it speaks of repent of sins.

In the first place, we born with spiritual death comes from Adam - Romans 5:12. So, we must be born again - repent of our sins to Christ, then we become alive again. Can we become dead again? Yes, if we make our choice for turn away with rebel, and disobey against Christ.

I believe Luke 15:11-32 teaches us, we can become spiritual death if we turn away from the Lord. Clearly, it teaches us of conditional salvation.

Do you agree with Luke 15:11-32, what Jesus Christ saying?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Deaf PostTrib,

I agree with Jesus Christ saying in Luke 15:11 - 32. But not sure that what he was saying about conditional to us today, because of persons He was speaking to in that day.

Read Scriptures around story about prodigal son. We must be very careful about concluding things from parables. This is story told to draw pictures about something important to events around Jesus Christ when He tell the story. Jesus Christ here speaking to Pharisees. Others Jesus Christ speaks here are story of lost sheep and story of lost coin.

Jesus started saying these because He was with sinners and tax collectors and Pharisees came and said to "This man receives sinners and tax collectors and eats with them!" They looking down their noses at Jesus and at sinners and tax collectors. Pharisees here saying they are better than these others. They say, "We are God's favorites. These others are not worthy of God's kingdom." That was always what Pharisees did.

Jesus hears them grumbling and tells stories against Pharisees. He is saying that sinners are like the one lost sheep that God loves so much that he sends Jesus to to save. Jesus Christ also saying that we sinners are like one lost coin that is so important to God that He sent Jesus to find for Him and bring back safe. Jesus came to save sinners not righteous people. Point is that we are all sinners and all need Jesus. But Pharisees like the older brother of prodigal son. They complain that they are God's favorites. They do not see how God can love sinners.

The point of the story is not to tell us we can become spiritual death if we turn away from the Lord. That is too much to read into the story, I think, because the point is not about the son that came back home. The son came home. He was welcome by his father. The point is that the older brother was upset and angry with his father, but his father, like you said, was glad. Jesus is rebuking here the Pharisees way of looking down on sinners and tax collectors. He is contradicting the words of the Pharisees and the way they think God plays favorites and thinks better of them because of the way they keep the Law. Pharisees think they are not sinners at all. I think story is more about how God loves everybody and we are not to exclude others from gospel like Pharisees by looking down on them and thinking that they can not be saved like us. Too many of us think we are better than other people who sin. "They can't be saved."

Back when Luke wrote this, many then still make division between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. Many even say, you must obey Law like Jews before you can become saved. Also Jews as people think that Gentiles were not loved by God. This parable apply to that situation too.

If story meant to teach conditional, then it teaches persons lose life in Jesus Christ can reclaim life and come back. Most people teach conditional do not teach that is true. If conditional is point here, to me, most sense is made by story if prodigal son is son that leaves father and does not ever come back. The problem I have with teaching conditional here mainly is contradiction with teaching that if we let go of Jesus Christ and lose forever life, we can not ever come back to Jesus Christ that so many conditional teacher teach. They turn Bible to Hebrews 6:6 and say it is impossible to renew to repentance.

I do not think point of parable is to teach us conditional here. I do not hide, I not believe in conditional, but I think that if God do teach us this in Bible, it is not here, because of the other stories around it that Jesus is telling and all of them about the same thing to rebuke Pharisees.

One more thing ...DeafPostTrib...I am hearing person, but one time many years ago, I worked at TDD service for National AIDS Hotline and learn how to write similar to signed English. Even though I am hearing, I am glad you are here at BaptistBoard, because I always feel like part of deaf family even now after I have left TDD service many years ago. I am sorry I have not said hello to you before now.

 

You say,

In that day???

No. Christ is not about about the true story what it already took - history. This passage, Christ gives us the illustration for apply to us as individuals, not just during Jesus' day, also, apply to all Christians throughout all ages.

Luke 15:11-32 is very clear teaching us of conditional warnings always apply to us as every individuals throughout all centuries.

Also, the three passages of Luke chapter 15 - lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son, all of these always apply to us of every individuals throughout all centuries.

Jesus use 'he' of Luke 15:5 is apply to leaders as pastors, but not just for pastors only, also apply to us. That we are responsible to deliver person from being destruction according to Ezekiel 33:8,9; and James 5:19-20 too.

Christ teaches us, that pastors are responsible to feed their flock, and protect them, make sure, none of them lost. The fact of today's showing us, many pastors failed to care their flock, they allow their flock astray away because of lack of discipleship, and encourage too. Not only for pastors, also, we are responsiblity to discipleship people to growing in the Lord. But, many of us failed them, we allow thousands or millions are on the way to hell according to Ezekiel 33:6,8-9.

The parable of a lost coin - Luke 15:8-10 teaching us, woman have a compassion over a coin, same we should be compassion over souls. Woman already own all ten pieces of silver in the place. (I added more clear illustration of this woman)One day, a woman decides go for shopping, so, she going to take ten pieces of silver with her, in the first place, she actually counted all of them exactly. While she is about to leave for shopping, she going to take all coins with her, she counting them to make sure, not miss one coin. While she counting them, she realizes, this is a missing coin with only 9 coins. She have to looking down for to find the coin. Same with us, we are responsiblity to make sure not miss a soul, also, it apply to pastors, they are responsiblity for not miss a memberof pastor's church.

Luke 15:7, 10 tell us, when find a person, then be joy over one person than many persons already repentance.

Christ uses sheep as illustration for farmer or shepherd to care sheep in the fence. Shepherd who already own all sheep in the fence, as he already counted them all at the first place. When one day, in the morning, the shepheard opens the gate of the fence, let all sheep going out of the fence into the field for the daytime. Then, later in the evening, time for the shepheard to gathering all sheep together and bring them into the gate, the shepheard counting them, to make sure, not miss ONE sheep. When, after he counting them, then he realizes, there is a missing sheep. He is so very concerning about a missing sheep.

In other way of illustration on Luke 15:4-7 comparing with parent who are worrying over their missing child. Today, we often hear, and see many posts of missing people at the stores. Same as parent calling Police, neighbors, relatives, telling them, that they worry about their missing child. So, Police, neighbors, relatives are helping parents to looking a missing child. When, either Police or neighhbor find a missing child, then they become rejoice, and bring a missing child return to parent's house, then parents become very happy, so, parents calling their neighbors, relatives telling them the GOOD NEWS of their child is found, as all of them are rejoice together. same with Luke 15:7,10 telling us, we should be rejoice over ONE person which was astray and back back (repentance) over all people need no repentance(they are remain just).

The fact telling us, many churches are failed to discipleship people, we allow people are on the way to hell because of lack on discipleship, Easy Believism, also security salvation too.

Obivously, the whole context of Luke chapter 15 telling us of conditional salvation.

That chapter 15 is always apply to us throughout all ages, that we are responsiblity to care souls, not allow them on the way to their destruction.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Jack, I wrote that “As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as the aorist past-perfect tense,” and, apparently, rather than take my word for it, you attempted to check out my statement. I am very pleased to see that. I wish that more Baptists would check out what they read on this message board (and other places) to ascertain the facts. However, the only thing of relevance that I find in the article for which you provided the above link is as follows:

Corey Keating writes that each “grammatical person (First, Second, and Third) can be either singular or plural in number.” He then gives an example where the first person can be singular (the Greek verb correctly translated “I have been persuaded” in Rom. 8:38-39), and an example where the first person can be plural (the Greek verb translated “we are” in Eph. 2:10a). Any student of Greek who has gotten past his first day of toilet training knows this. What does it have to do with eternal security, emphasis, or anything else other that the fact that Greek verbs are conjugated to express mood, tense, voice, PERSON, and NUMBER?

 

Jack wrote,

I have already addressed the issue here. That is, in order for the Greek text of the New Testament to be interpreted to teach the doctrine of eternal security, the basic rules of Greek grammar must be twisted and distorted until they are no longer a problem. Some people are so desperate to defend the doctrine of eternal security and the doctrine of predestination that they are willing to go to any extreme necessary, regardless of how dishonest and corrupt it may be. As I pointed out, the Greek verbs that are used in Rom. 8:29-30 are aorist indicative verbs, as even your “Greek scholar” agrees. However, that being the case, these verses to NOT say that any Christian ever has been or ever will be predestined to anything at all. But wouldn’t it be great if they did! Let’s see, now? What can we do about this? I’ve got it, let’s say that “the aorist indicative can be used to describe an event that is not yet past as though it were already completed in order to stress the certainty of the event.” The utter evil that has been committed here is interpreting Greek Grammar on the basis of one’s theology rather than one’s theology on the basis of Greek Grammar. This is absolutely outrageous!

No, Jack, there is no such thing as a proleptic aorist verb, and that is why I didn’t mention it.

 

No, Diane, it is not! Apostasy has nothing at all to do with a child telling his biological father that the man is no longer his father. It is a matter of the child loosing faith in his father and placing his faith instead in himself or something else other than his father.

Very many parents who have raised teenagers have witnessed the apostasy of a child. Most children eventually see the error of their ways and reconcile with their parents, but some children do not! In the natural realm the father may be partially at fault; in the divine realm only the child is at fault, and as much as the father desires the reconciliation, if the child is resolutely unwilling to be reconciled, the Father can do nothing without violating the will of the child, and I do not believe that God does that.

 

I do not believe that we will be tempted in heaven, and without temptation there can be no apostasy.

 

Thank you for reading my posts . If more people would do that, this world would be a better place for all of us , and we would all have a good understanding the Bible.