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Ancient faith gains believers!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by SouthernBoy, Apr 26, 2005.

  1. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Here was a very popular Scripture quote of the Waldensians that they would sometimes put on wills and documents that have survived:

    Protestants however don’t have this book. It is fascinating to see historically how this group gave up some of the books in their bible to make the transition to joining the Protestants.

    The Waldensians would have spirited debates with Catholic priests, but would not debate the Albigenses, because the Waldensians did not consider Albigenses to be Christians.

    Waldensians started out as Catholics and eventually joined the Protestants.
     
  2. SouthernBoy

    SouthernBoy New Member

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    I believe Eastern Orthodox Church believe in something called Theosis.

    I found this on the net:
    "THEOSIS

    The fundamental vocation and goal of each and every person is to share in the life of God. We have been created by God to live in fellowship with Him. The descent of God in the Person of Jesus Christ has made possible the human ascent to the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy believes that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God which is known as theosis or deification.

    Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship, nor does it take place only after death. On the contrary, theosis is a movement of love toward God which begins for each Christian with the rites of Baptism and which continues throughout this life, as well as the life which is to come. Salvation means liberation from sin, death, and evil. Redemption means our repossession by God. In Orthodoxy, both salvation and redemption are within the context of theosis. This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.

    These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine."
    http://www.st-luke.org/spirituality.htm

    Sounds Kinda Weird To Me...
     
  3. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Catholics would call this Sanctifying Grace, the life of Christ within us. Actually, some Protestants also believe in Sanctification.
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    As I see it both are just ways of describing being transformed into the image of Jesus, God Incarnate, as per eg Rom 12:1-2

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  5. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    I agree.

    1 Peter 1:
    15. but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
    16. because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
     
  6. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Funny; the Church fathers are the ones always used to project the later Catholic practices back into the NT. Also funny; in the The theological bankruptcy of Sola Scriptura thread; Matt posted a link to piney.com (what are they, some radical Primitive Baptists or Campbellites or something?); which makes arguments against not only musical instruments, but also all music; even vocal! They argue that that, along with the complex liturgies and incense were types of the true "worship in spirit and truth"; which is just preaching, Bible reading and praying. (I guess things like "spiritual songs" is allegorized). God allowed the music of David to the "carnal Israelites" until Christ came. There is much quoting from Clemant of Alexandria, who taught stuff like this. While on the music and instruments; I seriously disagree; as they do not have enough solid proof that they are shadows or types like sacrifices and othe other stuff (they try to associate it with the pagans and warfare, and that David was just a king, "like the other nations had", which Israel demanded in rebellion.) But with the incense and complex liturgy; that did all seem like a shadow or type of Heaven; as we see it used in Rev.
    The New Trestament Christians did not have cathedrals where they could do all of this stuff. They were mostly in homes; or even in hiding. I think if all of that was being practiced, you would see some mention of it. For one thing; like with the spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. people would definitely be doing things wrong, and be corrected for it! So things as significant as that could not escape at least some addressing.
    And where does it say you have to stand? That's another manmade rule; even moreso than pews; (which is nothing more, then the shape of chairs!)
    What really is the difference? Isn't this "ransom of death" based on original sin? And I guess I need to make sure of what I understand as original sin. To Evangelicals; it would be simply the sin nature we have inherited from Adam. In Catholicism; it is a bit different; isn't it? (For any religion to teach works-salvation; man's sin nature would have to be denied somehow). So I wonder how the EOC position is different from either.
    I wouldn't call that deification. Deification would be actually becoming God; not simply like Him. We do not become God, unless the Mormons, or Armstrong's "God family" doctrine are right.
     
  7. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Eric
    "the Church fathers are the ones always used to project the later Catholic practices back into the NT."
    "
    To be fair it could be argued that a couple of our own practices could have been projected into the Bible by the Reformers while those Churchfathers were simply clarifying obscure bits of the NT.

    "What really is the difference? Isn't this "ransom of death" based on original sin?"
    "
    Eastern-Orthodoxy doesn't believe in original sin, at least not as defined by Augustine. which is the definition used by much of Western Christendom.
    To horribly simplify the difference.
    Westerners, Original Sin is forgiven by God because Jezus took our punishment for us.
    Easterners, the sacrifice of Jezus makes it possible for us to grow more into the image of the Divine, which was our purpose from the beginning.

    "where does it say you have to stand?"
    "
    According to Eastern-Orthodoxy early Christians stood during church services, so so do they.
    What is certain is that they have been doing it that way for over 1500 years at the very least. This bit of tradition may very well stretch all the way back to the first century. That's not much of a reason in your ears (after all if such a detail is not spelled out in Scripture how important can it be?), but Eastern-Orthodox Christendom is very conservative, introducing seats at this point in time would start a fight as seriously as the KJVO controversy in their minds.
    The Bible seems to suggest that the correct procedure is to take communion lying down ( just retread the account of the Last Supper). ;)
     
  8. raymond

    raymond New Member

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    john 6:63>>>...After years and years of being brainwashed about Catholicism, I am enjoying learning and getting a better perspective of this denomination. <<<

    Hello john 6:63

    That is an intriguing statement. In your view, who brainwashed you about Catholicism, and what is the biggest and most persistent untruth told about us Catholics?

    your brother,

    raymond
     
  9. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    The Russian Orthodox church, was officially planted in 988 by the Greek Orthodox Churches with the baptism of Prince Vladimir and the nation following him in his choice. The Liturgy and order of service has been the same until today, being as the language was Russian and to hard for anyone to learn, outside influences were unable to shake it. Resultingly the Liturgical confession of Christ in the Russian Orthodox Church is as strong as in a Baptist service. As I see it, they were saved by a powerfull move of God in tenth century, although we dont relate to that style of service these days, traditionally many have been born again through that. I think we take that a little too lightly at times.
     
  10. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Well, to me, it looks like both, not one or the other. Jesus took our punishment, freing us from the curse of spiritual separation and enmity; which now allows us to grow more intot he image of God. Perhaps it's the one-or-the-other approach of both churches that leaves their gospels incomplete to begin with?
    So still; there's absolutely no scriptural proof. Hence "projected back". (I know Protestants do it to. That whole "Waldansians-Anabaptists-________" [just fill in your group; Baptist, JW, Church of Christ, sabbatarian; etc] chain being the primary example.)
     
  11. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Er...I'm not sure I did?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  12. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    The Tertullian link on p.20. The one you said "this is turgid stuff".
     
  13. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Oh.Right. I'm not sure who they are either. I just tend to do a Google search under a particular name and post a link or two that comes up with the salient information. Anyone else is of course free to do that - just put in 'Tertullian' into your search engine and see what comes up

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
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