And, And, And...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Sep 23, 2009.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    The old KJV uses the conjunction "and" so often. But the ESV is a respectable second in its employment of the word.

    In Luke 1:6-38 :

    KJV : 25 times
    ESV : 22
    NASBU : 9
    NAB : 6
    MLB : 5
    NET: 4
    TNIV: 3
    HCSB: 3
    REB: 3
    NJB: 3
    NRSV: 2
    NLTse: 2
    Norlie: 1

    In Mark, chapter 1:

    KJV : 35
    ESV : 28
    NJB : 16
    NASBU : 15
    NRSV : 13
    TNIV : 6
    REB : 5
    Norlie : 4
    MLB : 4
    HCSB : 4
    NAB : 4
    NLTse : 2
    NET : 2

    Matthew, chapter 1:

    KJV : 16
    ESV : 15
    NRSV : 14
    Norlie : 3
    MLB : 2
    HCSB : 2
    TNIV : 2
    REB : 2
    NASBU : 2
    NET : 2
    NLTse : 1
    NJB : 1
    NAB : 0
     
  2. Rippon

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    I'm waiting for someone to say:"And, so?"
     
  3. Deacon

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    kai...

    1100 times in Mark in the GNT

    Rob
     
  4. preachinjesus

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    The use of the conjunctive in both Greek and Hebrew is different than we use it today. Particularly in narrative passages the use of the conjuctive is there for movement and to keep things in line.

    Ironically if you were to look at the Gospel of Mark from a position of evaluating the conjuction and active verbs it is replete with them. Particularly when comparing kai with erkomai. :)
     
  5. Tater77

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    In modern English we have punctuation. In Koine Greek you have "kai" which translates most all the time as "and".
     
  6. TCGreek

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    And when we come to the Letters of Paul, there's another nuance to this versatile conjunction.
     
  7. TomVols

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    This is indeed one of the weaknesses of the ESV
     
  8. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    might this not be a Hebraism carried over fr the OT, possibly via the LXX, of the waw-consecutive imperfect construction? according to this Wiki:

    which basically means it's a grammatical quirk without any significant semantic meaning, something that the Heb language demands (like accent marks in French or question particles in Chinese or ALLCAPS in 1st-century Koine Greek) but doesn't need to be reflected in translation. IOW, that Heb waw does NOT mean "and" in English but is only a tense marker!

    and if that's so, then putting those "ands" into an English version only detracts from the meaning of the original.

    why did Mark seem to have a penchant for KAI? well, i dunno--maybe it had an intended effect on his audience that we no longer know. but not all the evangelists n apostles went for that KAI-waw correspondence, n we're certainly not obligated or encouraged to follow Mark above the others, are we?
     
    #8 Forever settled in heaven, Oct 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2009
  9. Harold Garvey

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    So are you saying the KJV is "better" in strength and more relaible than the ESV?
     
  10. TomVols

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    Ummm.....no :laugh: Nice try though :tongue3:
     
  11. Rippon

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    Somehow I had fogotten to include the NKJV in my listing.

    For Luke 1:6-38

    KJV : 25
    ESV : 22
    NKJ : 12
    NASBU : 9

    For Mark chapter 1

    KJV : 35
    ESV : 28
    NJB : 16
    NASBU : 15
    NKJ : 14
    NRSV : 13

    For Matthew chapter 1

    KJV : 16
    ESV : 15
    NKJ : 4
    Norlie : 3

    So wow, the NKJ is better than the ESV in eliminating the excessive use of "and".
     
  12. TC

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    It is my understanding that the translators of the ESV wanted to preserve the form of the Greek text. They said that they wanted to translate the Greek text and not interpret it for the reader.
     
  13. TC

    TC
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    It may be seen as a weakness in English, but many see it as being stronger in Greek than other versions.
     
  14. Rippon

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    As Charles Spurgeon said of the English Revised Version (which was the grandfather of the ESV): "It's strong in Greek, but weak in English." The same applies to the ESV.

    All Bible translations involve interpretation. there is no translation without interpretation.
     
  15. TomVols

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    And yet, the whole reason we have the RSV (and by extension, the ESV) was to make the RV more readable and to correct such overuse of wooden literalism that many feel the old NASB was guilty of and a few, such as Rippon's favorite Wayne Grudem, say the new is still guilty of.
     
  16. Jim1999

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    The English use of the word "and" is certainly not as bad as the modern abuse of the term "you know" every few sentences!!!!!!! Cor blimey! It drives me bonkers!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  17. Marcia

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    I know that one of my profs (who also taught Hebrew and Greek, which I did not take) said the "and's" are important and there for a reason.

    I think in Mark "and" implies an immediacy to the events being recounted, and fast action. Mark is very compact.

    The above would come across somewhat differently without the 'and's.'
     
  18. Rippon

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    Here is the same passage as rendered by the TNIV:

    Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "stand up in front of everyone." Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent. He looked around at them with anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, 'stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand wa scompletely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.
     
  19. Rippon

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    Happily, "You know" isn't used in any Bible translation. But to use the word "and" in conversation excessively as the KJV and ESV use it would drive most folks bonkers.
     
    #19 Rippon, Oct 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2009
  20. Rippon

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    The ESV is certainly more readable than the old ERV or the ARV. The NASBU reads awkwardly in a number of places. But I think it is a tad more natural-sounding than the so-called elegant English of the ESV.
     

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