And now for the Cathars....

True, there have always been bodies of Believers since the time of Christ who have held steadfast to the true Gospel once delivered to the saints.

There could also have been those who were labeled "Cathari" by the dominant religious organization who were not Cathari, but were really Baptistic. This does not negate the facts that the Cathar movement was an heritical one, by Baptist or Catholic standards.

 

Don't forget that, regardless of when the "canon" was generally accepted, most folks only had parts of Scripture. If you had only the gospel of John, and read what we call 1:4-10, 3:19-21, etc., what might you logically conclude? Or if you had some of Paul's letters, and read the epistle to Colosse, our 1:12-13, what might you be led to believe? And even if you were not a Zorostarian, you might be excused for emphasizing the conflict between darkness and light if you were in such a dark circumstance. Gibbon's research for "Decline & Fall" led him to believe that the Paulicians were not,in fact, Manicheanians (an earlier dualistic group). And let me re-emphasize that to pick up a phrase here, an idea there, and anathematize (or sanctify!) large groups of people who never saw one another, never heard of one another, lumped by officialdom into a category, and many of them (as well) martyred for their faith by others professing to be "the true Church" is no more valid history than just "swallowing them whole." It is AMONG these people that free (non-state) Christianity kept cropping up. Many in the official groups were saved individuals, no doubt, but the corruption of the Constantinian compromise invalidated their baptisms, therefore their church life. Remember that Constantine & Co. were willing to accept Donatist baptisms, but not vice-versa.

R. Charles Blair - Ro. 8:28

 

Matt - To be a bit more "nuanced" with the statement - "some of the Cathari." Remember who placed the tags! - RCB - Ro. 8:28

 

So God inspired the Apostles to write letters and books to His churches and to the world at large, upon which He commanded men to base their lives and eternities, only to let them fall into obscurity and become available only in parts and pieces. Sorry, that theory just simply won't square with anything about Christianity as revealed in the Scriptures.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Mark - Remember that these persecuted people had little time for quiet reflection - they were too busy hiding, evangelizing, moving - remember too that few people had any "books" of any sort before printing - hand-copies of parts of God's word were especially precious. They would use them to teach in their schools, and knowing there was more, would continue to search for others who also had portions. There was at least as much "canon study" among our folks as in the monasteries where monks beautifully illustrated texts they often could not read and would not allow "common folks" to read. Our people wanted to circulate what Scripture they had. Read Orchard's account of how the group we call Paulicians began, with only a few portions of the word left by a traveler as a gift. God was (and is) in the business of preserving His word and the Lord's kind of churches on the face of the earth, but there is much opposition. Often the very texts they had so laboriously copied were used to light the fires at the stakes where they were burned. In Communist Russia (and probably many other places, but I've talked to people in St. Petersburg who did this), one Bible was very carefully taken apart, the pages circulated among the underground "Initative" Baptists, memorized, and exchanged. In much the same way, the Lord's churches in the Dark Ages preserved a canon which made no room for the added traditions of the state party, which therefore hated them.

Best - R. Charles Blair - Ro. 8:28

 

Brother Blair,

Obviously Bibles were not as common and access to Bibles was not as easy in the days before printing as now.

Notwithstanding, the Scriptures themselves make it plain that they were to be the guiding light for men till the coming of the Lord. They were to be an integral element of the means whereby the gospel was to be spread and maintained in all the world. Take, for example, this one prophecy of the Lord:

"Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her."

Do you understand the ramifications of that to the subject at hand, brother Blair? There has never been a single place in the world where the gospel of Christ has been preached that the record of this woman's deed was not made known.

How, then, any believer in Christ can say that the record of this deed was lost, or may not have accompanied those who went out preaching the gospel is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Just sitting here thinking of the power and glory of that one simple statment absolutely makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck!

In light of this, and many other facts, I will never be made to believe that there has ever been a time since the Scriptures were completed that the Lord's true churches have not had access to all the Scriptures.

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen."

Amen!

Mark Osgatharp

 

While it may have been true that they had limited acces to the complete body of Scripture, or even to significant portions thereof, that is not the point. False doctrine is false doctrine, no matter the cause.

Many today do have full access to the Bible, in the original languages and their native language, and are still doctrinally off.

 

Mark - Just back from about a week in meetings - saw some commitments to mission work.

I appreciate your concern for "the whole Bible for the whole world" - and share it. But the simple historical facts are that hand-copied portions of Scripture were the primary witness in much of the Dark Ages. Did you go back and re-read Orchard's story of how our Paulician folks got the written word? p. 127. That story has always thrilled me.

God is still in control, and all the puny humanistic efforts to take charge continue to fail just as they always have. The printing press made the Renaissance and Reformation possible, and more public availability of written Scripture was the primary factor in bringing light into the darkness.

Wishing you His continued best - Charles-Ro. 8:28