And talk the GREEK 'kai' & 'de'

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Ed Edwards, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This was said elsewhere:

    Both the Greek 'kai' and the Greek 'de' have a major translation
    in English of 'and'. I've found some key passages where
    the understanding of what 'and' means determines one's
    Eschatology.

    I want to talk about that pesky '&' (ampersand) :)
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here are the Strong's readings I want to start with:

    G1161
    δέ
    de
    deh
    A primary particle (adversative or continuative);
    but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover,
    now [often unexpressed in English].

    G2532
    καί
    kai
    kahee
    Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative
    and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also,
    even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection
    (or composition) with other particles or small
    words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if,
    indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that,
    then, therefore, when, yea, yet.

    both are usually translated 'and' in the New Testament
     
  3. Salamander

    Salamander
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    And the "unusual" translations are?

    And who is it that determines usual from unusual?:wavey:
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    see Strong's entries above:

    &, but, etc., then ('and' in a time situation), also, both, but, even, for,
    if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore,
    when, yea, yet

    The 'de' is often untranslated in English (i.e. in translation you
    get a literal 'blank'.

    Matthew 24:8 (KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers):

    (1161) All3956 these5023 are the beginning746 of sorrows.5604

    (all word counts are from the KJV1769 Edition with Strong's Numbers
    of e-sword.com )

    '(1161)' appears in the New Testament in
    195 verses, 206 times -- in other words, 'de' isn't translated
    in the NT 206 times

    'de' appears (including the above) in 2534 verses for a total of 2841 times.
    so it is frequently used

    'kai' (Strong-G2532) shows up in 5218 verses for a total of 9265 times
    so it is used two to three times as much as 'de'

    'kai' is not translated in 152 verses for 155 hits

    In matthew 23:23 'kai' appears in the Greek in this list before mercy:

    ... judgement, mercy, and faith ... 'kai' is denoted by the comma (,)
    so the list of items could follow English rules that say: end each
    element in a list with a comma (,) and only put 'and' before the last element
    of the list.
    Two common Baptist Doctrines are:

    Priesthood of the Believer
    Soul Competency


    These dictate that each individual Baptist
    Christian person should, through the Holy
    Spirit & the Scripture, determine what is
    right and proper.

    So what counsel do you have, Competent Priest-Brother Salamander?

    Pro 11:14 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
    Where no counsell is, the people fall: but where
    many counsellers are, there is health.


    The purpose of this Versions/Translations Forum is
    to provide health & safety to our Fellow Priests &
    Competent Souls
    . In many Versions, there is added
    health & safety.


    IMHO people who don't help should be banned.
    But that is just my IMHO & may not be the Party Line here.

    I have several callings from God on my life which
    indicates to me that I'm called to participate in this
    BB (Baptist Board) and this Versions/Translations Forum
    toward the purpose stated above.

    So I'll have several sermons about '&', and-so-forth.
     
    #4 Ed Edwards, Sep 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2007
  5. tjfkbrawny

    tjfkbrawny
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    Kai and de are a couple of the broadest words in Greek.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Meaning's of 'and'
    1. connects two names of the same set
    2. connects two similiar sets
    3. connects a subset with it's set
    4. connects an element with it's set
    (a set is a collection of elements)
    5. the polylsendeton (outlining) 'and'

    I belileve most of the 'kai's here show an outline:

    Rev 20:4 (KJV1611 Edition) ('kai' words bolded by Ed,
    outline understood by Ed):

    I.A - And I saw thrones,
    I.B - and they sate vpon them,
    I.C - and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
    II.A & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
    II.B and for the word of God,
    II.C and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
    II.D.1 neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
    II.D.2 or in their hands;
    III.A and they liued
    III.B and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

    (III. is what happens to those in the two groups listed)

    But I ran this week (on the BB) ran into a person who says
    there are three groups of people there:

    I.A - And I saw thrones,
    I.B - and they sate vpon them,
    I.C - and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
    II.A - & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
    II.B - and for the word of God,
    III.A - and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
    III.B.1- neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
    III.B.2- or in their hands;
    IV.A - and they liued
    IV.B -and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

    However, I happen to know from earlier (about Rev 12 or 13) that
    one who receives the mark of the beast - will be beheaded,
    so I see those two groups as one. All depending upon the understanding
    of what 'and' means here.

    Anyway, I see two groups there:

    1. those given thrones
    2. those who didn't take the mark of the beast (MoB)
    and got their head lifted

    From other scriptures I've found this outline of the future:

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues -- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    I understand that the source of the two groups are:

    1. those given thrones
    --- 1. pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection

    2. those who didn't take the mark of the beast (MoB)
    and got their head lifted
    --- 2. Tribulation time

    (Revelation 20;4:5 tells what happens in step #3:
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    That is when those two groups get together on
    earth, one from heaven (group #1, those given
    thrones, where they got those thrones from Jesus
    as rewards for what they let Jesus do through them
    at the Judgement Seat of Christ)

    Thus there is two 'first resurrections'.
    IMHO 'first resurrection' is a type of
    resurrection - the resurrection of the just
    (and each of these two resurrections is accompanyed
    by a 'caught up' (Latin 'Raptos') /1 Thess 4:17/

    So while the scriptures do NOT say 'Jesus is going to come get
    us Real Christians in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection,
    I sure believe it. Now if you want to hope in something else,
    then just change to some other meaning of 'kai' here
    in Revelation 20-4-5. (which is translated '&' /ampersand/ in
    the KJV1611 Edition).
     
    #6 Ed Edwards, Sep 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2007
  7. Salamander

    Salamander
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    In the multitude of counsellors is safety.

    Fall where and into what?

    I do have a few ideas


    In many versions of the truth there remains confusion.

    You just tried to negate the Priesthood of the Believer there, Brother. But you are welcome to your opinion on the matter

    God calls by the still small vopice, not by our concepts of indications.

    From what I understand, if you'll accept it from me, is that the conjunction is used in the English to convey a continous train of thought and to make relative the next verse to the context.

    Now if you don't want honest imput due to some previously conceived notion of yours, just come right out and say it!

    It may be you're bitter becuase you've been banned from other sites? I dunno, but it seems your remarks indicate such.

    Like I heard a Gospel singer say at the recent awards ceremony, "Get over it"
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    [Quote by Ed:]
    Pro 11:14 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
    Where no counsell is, the people fall: but where
    many counsellers are, there is health.
    [/quote]

    TeeHee - My Bible is older than your Bible!

    [quote = about Provebs 11:14]
    Fall where and into what?

    I do have a few ideas
    [/quote]

    Here is a Version more modern than the modern
    KJVs:

    Proverbs 11:14 (TNIV2006 Edition = Today's New International Version)
    For lack of guidance a nation falls,
    but victory is won through many advisers.


    The purpose of this Versions/Translations Forum is
    to provide victory to our Fellow Priests &
    Competent Souls. In many Versions, there is added
    Victory. People who drag their feet in this
    Versions/Translations Forum are NOT NEEDED.

    I've already shown this statement to be:
    1. NOT BAPTIST
    2. NOT BIBLICAL
    and
    2. COUNTER TO THE WELL-BEING
    of this Versions/Translations Forum
    and the Baptist Board (BB) that contains it.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here is the first part of that last post done right:

    TeeHee - My Bible is older than your Bible!

     
  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    quote=Salamander] God calls by the still small vopice, not by our concepts of indications.[/quote] "Voipce"? "of indications"??

    Is that some new sort of "kione" English, by any chance?

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=42556&page=16

    [Post #156, "fopr thiose keepoing cpount". (sic)] :D

    Ed
     
    #10 EdSutton, Sep 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2007
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The ampersand (&) is used in the KJV1611 Edition
    in 304 verses for 326 times.
    The ampersand (&) is used in the KJV1769 Edition
    not at all. (The ampersand (&) was also not
    used in the Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition, which
    predates the KJVs ).

    The anpesand (&) is used to translate both
    the Greek 'de' and the Greek 'kai'.

    I wonder if anybody knows why & with what rules
    the ampersand (&) is used instead of 'and' in
    the KJV1611 Edition?

    The tiny ampersand (&) alone shows 300 times in
    the Bible that the 'Written words of God' change,
    but the 'Written Word of God' (I.E. the message)
    never changes.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here are some 'ands' in Matthew 24 that make the major outlilne
    in accordance with (IAW) Matthew 24:3. My understanding
    of the 'ands' makes my pretribulation raptrue/resurrection
    (PTR&R) different from most PTR&R folk. The other say:
    Matthew is for Jews only, don't bother reading it at all
    if you you are a church age gentile.
    I was asked if there is a PTR&R, why didn't Jesus mention
    it. He did. Jesus usesthe same term used in 2 Thessalonians
    2:1 - 'the gathering (of the saints) right there in Matthew 24:31.

    Well anyway, here we go:
    (I wrote this first in about 2000AD):

    --------------------------------------
    Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

    Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
    pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
    Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur
    (not in the order in which the questions were asked):

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
    (in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
    instead of an outline. This is most noticable
    in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
    I believe the major outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    answer: Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    answer: Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    answer: Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.

    --------------------------------------
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I said:
    // Pro 11:14 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
    Where no counsell is, the people fall: but where
    many counsellers are, there is health.
    //

    // The purpose of this Versions/Translations Forum is
    to provide health & safety to our Fellow Priests &
    Competent Souls. In many Versions, there is added
    health & safety.
    //

    //I have several callings from God on my life which
    indicates to me that I'm called to participate in this
    BB (Baptist Board) and this Versions/Translations Forum
    toward the purpose stated above.//


    To which was said:
    My bad, I rephrase:

    I have several callings from God on my life which
    DEMANDS that I'm called to participate in this
    BB (Baptist Board) and this Versions/Translations Forum
    toward the purpose stated above.

    Of course, every good servant (including those
    of our LORD Messiah Yeshua) knows:

    Your wish is my command.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    From what I understand, if you'll accept
    it from me:
    I'm trying to say that one must use their
    God Given Soul Freedom & Bible Freedom to
    figure out how each 'and' makes relative
    the two sets cojoined by it.

    From: The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
    page on Core Values:
    at:

    http://www.thefellowship.info/Inside CBF/core_values.icm

     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here is some stuff I said before my impecable logic
    shut down all discussion.
    Because there was no objection to AND no argument
    against, I assume these statements are all
    correct & proved by the written word of God.

    // Pro 11:14 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Where no counsell is, the people fall: but where
    many counsellers are, there is health.
    //

    // The purpose of this Versions/Translations Forum is
    to provide health & safety to our Fellow Priests &
    Competent Souls. In many Versions, there is added
    health & safety.
    //
     

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