And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.[John 5:40]

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Apr 13, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

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    What does Jesus Christ mean?
     
  2. icthus

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    Well, Calvinists say that it means that "they cannot come"; whereas Jesus says: "they choose not to come". This, of course requires "freedom of the will"
     
  3. TCassidy

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    OldRegular, it means "they will not come." The "natural man" does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolish to him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned and the natural man has no spiritual discernment.

    When the bible says "ye will not come" it is stating quite clearly that the will of the natural man is at enmity against God and he does not want (will) to come. His spirit is contrary to the Spirit of God (enmity) and he not only can't come due to his inability to understand spiritual things, but he doesn't want to come due to his enmity with God.

    It really couldn't be any clearer. [​IMG]
     
  4. whetstone

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    i agree tcassidy. accusations against Calvinists twisting scripture abound, but verses like this really can't be interpreted any other way.
     
  5. RodnStaff

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    I disagree. God is omniscient. He knows what will happen. This doesn't say "I will not let you come."
     
  6. whetstone

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    Calvinists don't say God won't let them come either. Christ here is making a statement about their wills. They will not come. that is the fallen state of man. only willing to sin.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Oldregular;
    The name "Jesus The Christ" means Salvation the anointed According to my Dictionary.
    Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
    There is that word "will" again. Christ was speaking to His own elect. So much for assurance coming from election.
    May Christ Shine His Light On us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. OldRegular

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    I posted this on another thread but to help you understand election unto salvation in Jesus Christ I thought it worthwhile to post it here.

    "In reality all people deserve hell or eternal separation from God.

    However, God in His Sovereign Grace has chosen some out of this fallen mass unto salvation in Jesus Christ. These He has chosen He will, in His own good time, regenerate, pardon, effectually call and justify through faith in Jesus Christ, adopt as sons, sanctify, preserve in the palm of His hand, and finally glorify.

    The remainder He has left in their fallen state."
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    RodnStuff is right. God is omniscience. He knows future, and he already know that they will not come to Him. Because of their heart hardened and stubborn, not willing to believe. That is their freewill decision. Of course, we are all filthy, and our mind are all filthy. But, that does not mean we cannot come or have ability to believe on Christ. Bible oftens telling us, do not be heart hardened, willing to open heart and believe the gospel. But that is their decision and choice. God cannot force them to come. God already know many will not come to Him, are in hell, because of sins, and disbelief on Christ.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. whetstone

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    you know, if a man can reason with me and convince me to change my mind (has happened!) then why do you feel God cannot convince a sinner to accept Christ? This means the depraved sinner is more powerful than God because the sinner can resist conviction from the God that knows everything about them! Don't you think God knows JUST the thing that would convince ANY person to come to Christ?
     
  11. JohnB

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    Moody, or was it Henry Ward Beecher, used to say that the elect are the "whosoever wills" and the non-elect are the "whosoever wonts."

    Though I suspect that Calvinists and non-Calvinists would agree on this, the Calvinists really mean "the whosoever cannot say no" and the "whosoever cannot say yes."

    I wish that Calvinists would publish a parphrased, or amplified, Bible which brings out all their nuanced understandings in clear English so that the common "Arminian" could truly understand the gospel. Something like JB Philips, the Amplified Bible, or even The Message.

    So, instead of "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" it would be "And ye cannot come to me because of your total inability and depravity that ye might have life"

    Or, "FAITH is the gift of God" rather than the confusing "it is the gift of God" in Eph 2:8-9.

    Think of how many things things could be cleared up!

    But then, even a paraphrase would require some kind of agreement or consensus among Calvinists. And with so many flavors of Calvinism being peddled, I guess it's better to stick with what the Bible actually says.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Oldregular;
    You have always been so eloquent in your defense of Calvinism. Not even once have you attacked me and I appreciate this very much. How ever I still disagree with your view. In real life you and I could be good friends. I understand that this is what Calvinism teaches but none of this is scriptural. My point is, it seems to me that for the most part Calvinism seems to be part gospel and part Augustine's perception of the gospel. It's Augustine's part that I have to disagree with. I know you'll disagree with my perception but I see election as conditionally universal.
    In other words we are all elected for Salvation. Not to Salvation.

    Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Since there are only two types of peoples in the world according to Judaism, Gentiles and Israel. We already know that Israel are elect and the Gentiles were chosen for Salvation because Israel would not receive Him. There is no one else in the world left to be elected How ever we have to make our election sure 2nd Peter 1:1-10.
    May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    Whether or not God works to convince and convict is not the issue. The issue is man can resist the influence of God for Salvation simply because God want's our genuine Love. If God's love is anything less than what is described in 1st Cor 13 then it isn't perfect Love.
    1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
    1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
    God doesn't seek His own way with us forcefully but courts us like any Bridegroom does His future bride.
    To suggest that God makes us is suggesting God is doing it against our will. This is rape of our will.
    The reason so many do not come is because they didn't fall in love with Him by hearing His message.
    Love is a product of the will which is why it is possible to love our enemies. with out man being willing to Love God on our own God doesn't have genuine Love from us. I would encourage you to read and study 1st Cor 13 Then ask you self if what is claimed by Calvinism really true Love then ask if God can have anything less than perfect Love.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. Kiffen

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    No Calvinist I knows of teaches God forces anyone to be saved. Calvinism teaches God the Holy Spirit frees lost humans from their depraved SELF WILL that leads them to damnation and as the Westminister Confession explains, "taking away their heart of stone, and enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace"
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    It does not mean that the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit!

    It means that when given an invitation to come, some come others do not!

    Refer to the parable of the wedding feast!
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    I posted this on another thread but to help you understand election unto salvation in Jesus Christ I thought it worthwhile to post it here.

    "In reality all people deserve hell or eternal separation from God.

    However, God in His Sovereign Grace has chosen some out of this fallen mass unto salvation in Jesus Christ. These He has chosen He will, in His own good time, regenerate, pardon, effectually call and justify through faith in Jesus Christ, adopt as sons, sanctify, preserve in the palm of His hand, and finally glorify.

    The remainder He has left in their fallen state."
    </font>[/QUOTE]Pure hogwash! Man made hogwash!

    It is the father's will that none, that is, any-out-of-all should perish but have everlasting life.
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Kiffen;
    Are you saying then that regeneration is agreed on before it is done.?
    Are you saying that man can choose Evil over God after regeneration?
    Are you saying that we actually have a relationship with God?
    Are you saying that once elected a man can still be lost?
    You know a relationship takes two who are in agreement with each other.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. Michael Hobbs

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    That statement completely contradicts the following:
    Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

    If Salvation isn't offered to every single human being, then these verses are a lie.

    Please don't point me to Romans 9 and say, "God loved Jacob and hated Esau". Check out Genesis 36 and tell me Esau wasn't blessed. Both Jacob and Esau received blessings from God but only Jacob was chosen to be the lineage from which Christ would come thru Mary. That is not the same as Salvation.
     
  19. 4His_glory

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    God's election is not based on respect of any person it is soley of His grace. God does not respect anybody, nor does He need to respect anybody because He is God. God does not call His elect because they deserve it, but because they do not deserve it.

    Acts 10:34 when you keep it in its context demonstrates that God does not respect people of any one nationality above another. But rather He elects and saves people from every nation.

    Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.'
    Act 10:33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."
    Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
    Act 10:35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
    Act 10:36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), (ESV)

    The word "acceptable" in verse 35 means: marked by a favorable manifestation of the divine pleasure."

    Lets keep Rm. 2:11 in context as well.

    Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
    Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
    Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality.
    Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

    This passage is talking about God's condemmnation of sinners. All have sinned and all nationalities Jews and Gentiles are held to the same standered. Again this would imply that elction and salvation are only the works of God's grace since no one is deserving of them.

    And Eph 6 is addressing masters to show no partiality to their servants, just as God shows no partiallity amongest men. All are sinners and thoes He saves are saved because of His grace.
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi 4Hisglory;
    Then would you care to explain why Calvinist believe that He only chooses some and not all?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     

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