anihilation or immortality for the lost?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 20, 2010.

  1. BobRyan

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    Apparently Pinnock and Stott have made a pretty good case for the wicked not being rewarded with immortality if they do not choose eternal life.


    What do you think of this statement on Annihilationism in Wikipedia

    Annihilationism is the statement that while the wicked do suffer the torment of fire and brimstone in the lake of fire - the 2nd death -- they also experience the Ezek 18:4 prediction "the Soul that sins will die" and they experience the truth of Matt 10:28 that God is fully capable of destroying BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell - unlike the first death where only the body is killed.

    What are your thoughts?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Cutter

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    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    That is a good one for possibly saying that the Lamb and the Angels spend eternity at the brink of the lake of fire - that burns forever so that the wicked are tormented forever "in the presence" of His Holy Angels.

    Apparently the saints are there as well - in the presence of the Lamb - wherever He goes.

    John 14:3That where I am there you may be also

    1 Thess 4:13And thus (after the rapture) shall we ever be WITH the Lord

    Rev 14
    3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
    4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.


    Johnathan Edwards comments on the joy of seeing our loved ones burn as the saints also stand in the presence of the Lamb.

    So also does Jamieson, Fausset and Brown comment on this point

    Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary
    tormented . . . in the presence of . . . angels-- (Ps 49:14; 58:10; 139:21; Isa 66:24). God's enemies are regarded by the saints as their enemies, and when the day of probation is past, their mind shall be so entirely one with God's, that they shall rejoice in witnessing visibly the judicial vindication[/b]God's righteousness in sinners' punishment.

    http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=014


    While I do not agree with them on the idea that the saints will be happy about watching their loved ones burn - I do agree that this is "in the presence of the Lamb and of the Angels" and that this is as Edwards not - fully seen by the saints as well.

    By contrast - Christ said that this torment ends in the "Destruction" of "both body and soul" in Matt 10:28.

    In Rev 21 it is said only after the lake of fire event is over - that for the saints - every tear is wiped away -


    Rev 21 –
    4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.''
    5 And He who sits on the throne said, ""Behold, I am making all things new.'' And He said, ""Write, for these words are faithful and true.''

    So how can both Rev 14:10 and Matt 10:28 be 100% accurate?

    Rev 14:10 "smoke ascending up forever" may refer to the memory of that event never being forgotten.

    Numbers 5:26
    and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial offering and offer it up in smoke on the altar, and afterward he shall make the woman drink the water.

    Here is another case where "smoke ascends up forever" - and yet non-eternal things live there without being on fire.


    Is 34:
    8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
    9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.

    10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
    11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

    Not saying there will not be torement and suffering in the lake of fire (second death) for the wicked. But the "smoke ascending up forever" may have the Isaiah 34 meaning - given John's method of often referencing Isaiah in his book.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, May 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2010
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    I'm against it.
     
  5. Cutter

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    You do err. The scripture comes no where close to saying that the Lamb and the Angels spend eternity at the brink of the lake of fire, and for you to suggest such is adding to scripture. The for ever shows up in verse 11 not verse 10.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Indeed that is my point. The scriptures can be bent to that logical conclusion if you make the mistake of construing the lake of fire event to never end and if you construe the reward of wickedness to be 'immortality in the lake of fire" where Christ's Matt 10:28 statement is totally untrue. ( instead of the more accurate Bible idea of the smoke of their torment ascending up forever and ever.)

    Hint the verse designators were added many centuries after the NT writers wrote the text.

    Matt 10
    28 ""Do not fear [b]those
    who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b][/quote]

    Luke 12
    4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those
    who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
    5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who,
    after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b
    ]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!



    Notice that the eternal fire element has been given to us by example in the past


    Luke 17:29
    but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

    Jude
    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

    2 Peter 2:6
    and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, May 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2010
  7. Cutter

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    Indeed that is my point. A very weak attempt at making a weak point indeed.
    The scriptures can be bent If one chooses to twist and bend such as you have been prone to do. to that logical conclusion Our human logic has nothing to do with it. Let the scripture speak without adding to it or taking away.
    if you I am not the one that has to go around the block to reach logical conclusions such as you. make the mistake No mistake. The scripture has spoken. of construing the lake of fire event to never end and if you construe the reward of wickedness to be 'immortality in the lake of fire" As I said, I quoted scripture and did not have to add or take away anything. Sorry to say, that you did.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    I prefer actaully exegesis to the game you are playing - but that is just me. ;)

    (Has something to do with that whole "sola scriptura" testing thing)

    Feel free to look at the texts posted and comment.
     
  9. Jon-Marc

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    Unfortunately, I believe that the lost will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10 says that the lake of fire is eternal, and verse 15 says that anyone whose name is not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Hell, which is later cast into the lake of fire, also tells of suffering and torment.

    Personally, I think it would be more humane if they simply ceased to exist. Although some people were or are so wicked and perverse that eternal suffering would be appropriate, I don't believe that most people deserve eternal suffering and torment simply because they never worshiped God.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1. In Rev 20 it is "Hades" (The grave) that is cast into the lake of fire.

    2. You bring up a good point about vs 15 and "eternal fire".

    Hence the Sodom and Gomorrah example where real eternal fire burned real cities on the real earth in real history.

    Luke 17:29
    but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

    Jude
    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

    2 Peter 2:6
    and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;


    True - but we cannot limit the subject to what we would hope or suggest that God do - we have to go with what the text says.

    (As I know you already agree).

    All the more reason to check into the details here to see if popular beliefs are really what the Bible is teaching.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    In Matt 10 Christ states that BOTH body AND soul are destroyed in hell. This does not mean that the wicked will not be tormented in fire and brimstone before being finally and fully destroyed.



    Matt 10
    28 ""Do not fear [b]those
    who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Luke 12
    4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those
    who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
    5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who,
    after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell
    ; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
     
  12. Darrell C

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    Hello Bob,

    You say you prefer exegesis, then thats something you can prove.


    We don't need the thoughts of others, let's do this with just our thoughts and God's word.

    Not with excerpts from sources that reference false writings

    Sola scriptura...right?



    Matthew 25:46 (King James Version)

    46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Everlasting and eternal are this:

    166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    Punishment is this:

    2851. kolasis kol'-as-is from 2849; penal infliction:--punishment, torment.

    If Jesus had meant this was not literal, we would have had a..."Eternal punishment is like unto..."


    Lets start with this.


    God bless.
     
  13. Darrell C

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    Hello Bob,

    To which you reply:


    Because you insert this statement into the conversation doesn't mean I would.

    We are told that those who follow the beast will receive punishment in the presence of Jesus and holy angels.

    We are also told that the smoke of their torment ascends forever...this means their punishment is forever, that the smoke of the lake of fire will go up forever...the lake of fire is the source of their torment, and it is eternal.

    We are not told that Jesus and the Angels will be in the grandstands.

    Torment is:

    929. basanismos bas-an-is-mos' from 928; torture:--torment.

    The fact that this is forever is clear in the text.

    Now, most of us consider Satan and his angels to be eternal spirits.

    Why would we not see man's spirit as eternal?

    God bless.
     
  14. Darrell C

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    Hello Bob,

    [/QUOTE]

    Lets look at this proof that the destruction of the wicked is not eternal.

    Because I can't really read this in the posting box, I will repost the verses.

    Matthew 10:28 (King James Version)

    28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



    Destroy is this:


    622. apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    This will be one of your better arguments, because it does mean to destroy fully.

    The question is, does this mean the destruction is speaking about annihilation?

    Consider:

    Romans 14:15 (King James Version)

    15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.


    Does it mean we can annihilate our "brothers" with meat?

    I've been to some bad restaurants, but...

    1 Corinthians 1:19 (King James Version)

    19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.



    Is this not, in context, a continual battle?

    And translated by another word, perish, we can see clearly that our word can not be used to dogmatically conclude annihilation:

    2 Peter 3:6 (King James Version)

    6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


    Now, you could, if you wanted to pursue this line of reasoning, say this speaks of the people who died in the flood.

    But what we are trying to determine is this, does it mean annihilation, or does it allow for ongoing destruction?

    Were the people who died in the flood totally destroyed?

    Annihilated?

    We find them here:

    2 Peter 2

    4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

    8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

    9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


    Punished is:

    2849. kolazo kol-ad'-zo from kolos (dwarf); properly, to curtail, i.e. (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction):--punish.

    Does not denote annihilation.

    And we see they are still around, after all this time.

    Showing at least this: whether you want to count "destroy" as referring to the world or the people of the world in the flood, we see that "destroy" did not mean annihilation.

    Thus, yanking the rug out from under the argument that those who we are clearly told by Jesus would suffer eternal punishment...will not.


    We find these people again in:

    1 Peter 3

    18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


    It is interesting to note that, not only was Jesus conscious when He died (made alive by the spirit, probably better rendered in the spirit...still quite the opposite of soul sleep), but could we imagine that the poor souls He preached to were soul sleeping?

    Not only were they not utterly destroyed as annihilationist believe those who enter the lake of fire will be...

    But they were conscious and heard the preaching of Jesus.

    May we hear the preaching of Jesus, and take Him at His word.

    God bless.
     
  15. DHK

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    The word "destroy" usually means "to render inoperable."
    A good example is in a car.
    If the car is in an accident an unrepairable it is taken to a junkyard, the useful parts taken out to be sold, and then the car is crushed and stacked with others like it. It is "rendered inoperable." It still exists, but it will never be operable again.

    The difference between a car and a dead person is this.
    There is a resurrection to come: one for the just and the other for the unjust. They are separated in time by a thousand years. The just will receive an immortal body that will live for eternity in heaven.

    The unjust will also receive an immortal body. They will stand in heaven at the Great White Throne Judgment in that body before Him that is seated on that Throne, only to receive their final sentence of being thrown into the Lake of Fire where they shall be tormented (in that immortal body) day and night forever and ever. [That is the basic difference between hell and the LoF--one has spirit beings; the other they will be clothed with immortal bodies]. "tormented day and night forever and ever," is not annihilation by any stretch of the imagination. It could never mean that. It would take a lie to mean that.
     
  16. DHK

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    God created the universe. He made the laws of the universe. We only discover that which he has created and made.
    God established, for example, the First Law of Thermodynamics:
    That matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only be changed from one matter into another. It is true that God can go against his own law, but that goes against the nature of God. God does not go against his own laws when he doesn't need to.

    IF the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics holds true, then annihilation is impossible. Why would God go against his own laws, when it is not necessary to do so? This doesn't make sense.
     
  17. billwald

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    If God wants to determine the eternal destiny of his creation before he creates it that's his right but if God predestines the majority of the sentient beings to irritate him so that he has an excuse to send them to Hell so that he can torture them forever then God is some kind of a sadist.

    If God had intended that 90% of his creation should have gotten a passing grade but failed then God could be loving but incompetent to get what he intends.

    If God gives all his creation an up or down choice after they fully understand the consequences of their decision and if any choose Hell I have no problem with that and this is an honorable God.
     
  18. billwald

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    > for example, the First Law of Thermodynamics:
    That matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only be changed from one matter into another.

    That was God's pre-Einstein law. We now know that matter and energy are interchangable so God changed his law to "matter plus energy. . . ."


    >It is true that God can go against his own law, but that goes against the nature of God. God does not go against his own laws when he doesn't need to.

    Agree 100%. Have long thought that God does not believe in "make work."

    >IF the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics holds true, then annihilation is impossible.

    Are you confusing your laws before you misinterpret them? How does God punish chaotic energy?
     
  19. ccrobinson

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    Do the Laws of Thermodynamics apply in Heaven and/or Hell?
     
  20. DHK

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    God can over-rule any laws he wants.
    All I am saying is this:
    The SDA theology is that once one is cast into hell or Lake of Fire they are annihilated--consumed into nothingness. Even to think of that in logical terms it doesn't make sense. We live in a world and in a universe which God made. Our God is a God of order, and not of chaos. He chooses to work with order and logic.
    In the SDA there is illogic.

    But the Bible doesn't teach "annihilation." Nowhere is such a concept taught. The Bible teaches eternal torment, as much as we don't like to think of terms like that we must face the truth and integrity of the Word of God. There is eternal torment in a place called Hell. If the SDA choose to deny it that is their choice. But they are wrong--eternally wrong.
     

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