Another approach at disproving OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jun 28, 2013.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    Matthew 7:21-23
    21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
    but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
    and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
    23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’


    Jesus never "knew" those who did NOT do God's will, e.g. those who did NOT do the following:
    “For just as you (pre-BAC) presented your members as slaves of uncleanness,
    and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness,
    so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19)


    Righteousness is doing God’s will (i.e. being obedient) … Lawlessness is NOT doing God’s will.
    Matt 25:46 … And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
    1 Peter 4:18 ... Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
    1 John 3:7 … Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous


    All of this NT "knowing" refers to an intimate-type of relationship, i.e the sheep, etc.
    And this is the "knowing" prophesied concerning the new covenant (Jer 31:31-34 and Ezek 36:24-28).

    IMO, part of NOT doing God's will is to NOT obey His commands,
    or to NOT really try hard to obey ALL of His commands!
    I say that a considerable number of BACs have been guilty of this.
    Which means, they refused to really follow the promptings of the Spirit, etc.
    "For as many as are being LED by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

    IMO, obedience is of paramount importance.
    BACs have been given every opportunity to excel at this because they have the Holy Spirit.
    Paul says, "If the OT Jews were left strewn all over the desert floor, what about us if we disobey?"
    Note: the OT Jews, "God's chosen people", were given EVERY opportunity to succeed (except no Holy Spirit).

    Opinion ...
    The word has been extremely cleverly written, almost to the point of deceivingly so!
    It has been purposely written to somewhat hide how difficult it is to satisfy God.
    Reason: too many people would be turned off and quit.
    This also is nicely hidden ... Jesus warned, “First, count the cost of being My disciple.”

    Opinion ...
    It makes no sense for God to create BACs out of garbage, and take them into heaven for eternity ...
    ... if they do NOT co-operate with Him in preparing themselves for this eternity with a totally holy God.
    Logically, objectively, and subjectively, this means some will co-operate and some will not ... hence no OSAS.

    .
     
    #1 evangelist-7, Jun 28, 2013
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  2. The Biblicist

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    Why must you JUMP out of the context to find out what they did not do??? The preceding context and following context make it clear who they are and what is the will of the Father they failed to do.

    1. They failed to "BE" what only comes by new birth (Mt. 5:4-12).

    2. They failed to "BE" what only comes by a creative act of God (Light, salt) - (Mt. 5:13-16).

    3. They failed to "fulfill" the Law of God, so that not one iota or jot was left unfulfilled (Mt. 5:17-18) - Only Christ can fulfill it so.

    4. They failed in their attempts to understand the Law's standard for justification much less obey it - Mt. 5:19-46

    5. They failed to understand the true nature of worship much less practice it - Mt. 6

    6. They failed to discern the Laws demands for justice much less practice it (Mt. 7:1-12)

    7. They failed to make the narrow way and straight gate which is the sole foundation of Jesus Christ as the way, the truth and the life while their understanding and practice of law keeping places them on the broad way with all other religious of justification by works - Mt. 7:13-14

    8. Such as teach their broad way are "false prophets" - Mt. 7:15-20

    9. Such as mix faith with "have we not done" as the basis for entrance of heaven fail the truth of the gospel and Christ has NEVER known those who come on this basis for entrance into heaven - Mt. 7:21-23

    10. Such have the same outward appearance of life as the justified by faith in Christ ("house") but the difference is the foundation. There foundation is a MIXTURE ("sand") of works and faith to withstand the day of judgement whereas the rightoeus is the solid "rock" of Christ alone minus plus nothing.

    In other words these were NEVER TRUE CHRISTIANS AT ANY TIME but "wantabee" people of God. Christ "NEVER" knew them at ANY TIME and He is saying this from the future perspective of Judgement day which can only look backwards into eternity past.

    However, those in Romans 4-8 are justified born again Christians and you are jerking it out of context and misapplying Romans 6 and jerking it out of its explanatory context which ranges from Romans 6 to Romans 8:16.

    BTW before some one says this is a pre-"Christian" text let them acknowledge that "Christ" is the Greek translation of the Hebrew term translated "messiah" and it is simply silly to say their were no believers in the "messiah" = "Christ" prior to the cross.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Jun 28, 2013
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  3. evangelist-7

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    Basically, every new paragraph in Matt 5,6,7 begins a new thought/topic.
    Using a Bible which shows where paragraphs begin?

    So, your first 9 points are disqualifed.

    The context of Matt 7:21-23 is all about people who probably actually DID DO Pentecostal-type works.
    Jesus never calls them liars, just doers of lawlessness ... they never did sufficiently of God's will.
    Jesus can use people for His purposes who have never been a BAC, and never will be.

    The context of Matt 7:24-27 is all about people doing (or not doing) all of His sayings
    ... sayings like all throughout Ch. 5,6,7.

    If you are a BAC, are you one of God's "slaves of righteousness for holiness" (Romans 6:19),
    or are you just trusting in OSAS ... like many millions have done throughout the centuries?

    .
     
    #3 evangelist-7, Jun 28, 2013
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  4. The Biblicist

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    Since when are paragraph divisions inspired????? It is the subject divisions and I accurately presented them..

    1. The BE-attitudes are dealt with in verses 4-12
    2. The effects of what they are by nature - vv. 13-16
    3. What it means to fulfill the Law - vv. 17-19
    4. What ie means to not fulfill the Law - vv. 20-46
    5. What is true worship and what is not true worship - Mt. 6
    6. What is true discernment and what is not true discernment - Mt. 7:1-20
    7. What does not versus what does pass the day of judgement - Mt. 7:21-27

    The whole sermon is about discerning true from false professors, true born again versus those who attempt to be justified by their works to satisfy the Law.

    No, it is not. It is about the difference between BEING a Christian by nature versus TRYING TO BE a Christian by works. It is the difference of foundations as the basis to pass judgement rather than a difference in the manifest "house" of ones life of works.

    You don't get it! Only Christ can fulfil the Law's demands - all of its demands (Mt. 5:17-18,20,46) while those who TRY never reach the righteous standard of being perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect and to come short of that is "iniquity" or lawlessness because to come short in ONE POINT is to fail in ALL POINTS and thus such are "workers of iniquity."

    He does not call them liars, he calls them failures, because all the good works in the world no matter their character is not good enough unless it produces a righteousness superior to the best of unregenerated men (Mt. 5:20) and equals the best of God's sinless righteousness (Mt. 5:46). Anything less than an absolute sinless life COMES SHORT and all are "worker's of iniquity."


    Jesus said that he "NEVER knew" them and he is omnicient and so it cannot refer to pre-science but to the intimacy of redemptive salvation. They were NEVER His, NEVER saved, NEVER justified. Like all who believe in works plus faith in Christ they are lost and will remain lost.
     
  5. Alive in Christ

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    Praise God, for the security we have..in that because of the God given truth of eternal security we can be CERTAIN that we can never be lost again

    Glory to God!
     
  6. DHK

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    Another approach at disproving OSAS

    Give it up! It can never be disproved!
    Just believe the Bible.
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    Jesus NEVER knew any of them, so were never saved!
     
  8. evangelist-7

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    This must be nonsense because ...
    -- Jesus commanded us to be perfect and holy ... and it's in the trying that counts!
    -- Paul said to practice righteousness unto holiness, and many etc.

    You are against obeying God's commands.
    You are against practicing righteousness.
    You are against being sanctified unto holiness.
    etc.
    Scripture exhorts/encourages us to do all of these things!

    You want a list of these passages?
    No, of course not, because you prefer your doctrines.
    Kinda reminds me of cessationism ... God, what a laugh!

    .
     
    #8 evangelist-7, Jun 28, 2013
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  9. Salty

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    I think he is trying to convince himsel
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    I don't deny that at all. So tell us how do you, in your own person be "perfect EVEN AS God is perfect"?

    1. Has God ever sinned in the past? If you have you fail already
    2. Does God sin in the present? If you do you fail already
    3. Will God ever sin in the future? If you do you fail.
    4. Does God ever need forgiveness? If you do you fail to be perfect "EVEN AS" God is perfect.

    So where are you going to obtain this demand by Christ? Look to the Law and see if you can obtain it by your works. That is what the Jews did and Jesus said none of them ever kept the law:

    Jn. 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

    Do we have to go back over the two uses of the word "perfect" in Scripture. Both uses are found in Galatians 3:10-14. Sinless perfection Paul never claims to have obtained but rather that is the mark he presses toward and it is the only reasonable goal for any Christian to strive for. However, he was already "perfect' in the sense of "maturity." The same two uses are found in Hebrews 5:14-6:3.

    Where are you going to get righteousness better than best of fallen men (Mt. 5:20) and equal to God's own (Mt. 5:46). Don't you realize to fail in one point is to fail in all points (James 2:10-11)???? So where are you going to obtain a righteousness that the Law can justify failing in NO POINTS?????



    he is talking to those who already received such a righteousness BY FAITH in Christ's righteousness FOR them.


    You are with those who made the very same charges against Christ and Paul. They charged Paul with the very same charge! However, faith in Christ for complete satisfaction of the laws' demands FOR us is the only way the Law is vindicated. This is what it means to be "in him" by faith so that his own personal righteousness is credited to us by faith - Rom. 3:31. Only born again, justified saints can do righteousness as others are all "workers of iniquity" as their own obedience always fails in ALL POINTS when they fail in one point.

    Justification by faith secures entrance into heaven and eternal life all by grace through faith without works. Regeneration worked out in progressive sanctification obtains partial growth in holiness only to be perfected at glorification and so our works of righteousness are never for justification as Christ has obtained that already for us.


    You don't realize it, but you are rejecting Jesus Christ when you teach justification by works and if that is really the basis of your profession of faith you will be among those in Matthew 7:22-23 as "workers of iniquity."
     
  11. preacher4truth

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    Yes, try another angle, thus far and up to this point you've failed to prove Christ wrong in John 6:39.

    I'd stop if I were you.

    :thumbs:
     
  12. evangelist-7

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    Yes, it seems this one little verse is a problem, and I haven't looked into it yet.

    So, what reason(s) do you see for all of the many dozens of warnings/threats to the churches?
    To the unsaved in the pews?
    To encourage greater rewards amongst the BACs?

    That last one was in vogue years ago, but has really gone out of favor lately.
    Gotta be some good reason, or as one Global Moderator said, "It wasn't to waste paper and ink."

    BTW, it's nice to see that you've mellowed out considerably.

    .
     
    #12 evangelist-7, Jun 28, 2013
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  13. evangelist-7

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    Generally speaking ...
    I believe that the warnings/threats in the NT are written to EVERYONE.

    Because so many of these speak of the lifestyle of the unsaved,
    while also warning the BAC to NOT return to this previous way of living.

    So the warnings are to the unsaved ... Do not do these things!
    And the warnings are to the saved ... Do not do these things!

    All of this is mixed in with many edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
    such as Paul's usual approach:
    "Oh, but YOU would never even dream of doing such and such, would you?"
    ... which BACs mistaken as being facts regarding them! ... many LOLs!

    Not so ... There are a TON of veiled threats/warnings!

    Then, when the precious Holy Spirit prompts the BAC,
    he/she remembers reading about such and such warning.
    Confirmations are BIG in the Christian life in all kinds of ways!

    Quote of the day ...
    "God's free gift of grace-faith was just to get you on the right road."

    Hopefully, you chose the narrow one!
    "Oh, the narrow one is trodden by those walking by grace!" ... LOL

    His grace continues as long as you co-operate with the Holy Spirit, who is inside of you!
    Otherwise, why is He there?

    .
     
    #13 evangelist-7, Jun 28, 2013
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  14. The Biblicist

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    But you do not list "everyone." There are three possible classes among "everyone."

    1. Two classes of lost
    a. the Professed but lost
    b. the non-professed lost

    2. The Born Again


    Even you must admit that JW's, Mormon's, New Age Christian cults are PROFESSED people of God.

    There are four cogs missing from your logic. First, You confuse true born again with professing lost.

    Second cog is these commands are designed to help US separate the lost professor from the BAC as God already knows His own from the beginning of the world but we do not.

    Third, attempts to keep his commandments reveals sin and inability and leads a person to Christ for justification as such command keeping cannot obtain justification for anyone.

    Fourth, the motive for commandment keeping by BAC is not to obtain heaven but to glorify God here and now, spiritual growth, blessings here and now, and rewards in heaven - all about spiritual growth and experiencing salvation that they already have.


    Third,
     
  15. JohnDeereFan

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    People try so hard to chip away at the Word of God and yet, the Word of God remains.

    Sorry, but you're not going to disprove the Biblical doctrine of eternal security or, as I call it, the Biblical doctrine of Christ's competence to keep that which the Father has given Him.
     
  16. 12strings

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    Looking at your posts gives me a headache and they are very hard to read...could you please use a normal, black, font?
     
  17. steaver

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    "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

    The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

    I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

    -- Jesus --

    My daily prayer; "God be merciful to me a sinner in Jesus' name I pray".

    Each of us must choose to be the Pharisee Jesus spoke of or the publican. I am the publican, how about you?
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    It's not 'one little verse' it is the Word of the Eternal Son of God.

    You misinterpret so much because you don't believe what He said.

    Christ doesn't need your help saving you.

    And take another's advice: stop using the annoying color feature to the extreme.
     
  19. evangelist-7

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    'Twil be interesting to see the intellectual rationalizations coming forth from this one.
    I'ze gettin' ready to laugh already!

    Note: It might just help you, if you read every word closely.

    Jesus stresses the consequences of being an unfruitful Christian who does not abide in Him

    John 15:
    2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
    and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
    3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
    for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
    and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
    and it shall be done for you.
    8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


    Translation of the above ...

    Jesus' true disciples are Christians who abide in Him and bear much fruit.
    Christians who do not abide in Jesus are taken away and thrown into the fire.
    Christians who do not bear fruit are cast out and thrown into the fire


    Actually, I'll be truthful and admit that I'm laughing already!

    .
     
    #19 evangelist-7, Jun 29, 2013
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  20. The Biblicist

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    You may be laughing at your own ignorance. For example, do you understand the different Biblical ways one may be "in Christ"???

    They can be "chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world" - Eph. 1:4
    They can be "created IN CHRIST Jesus" by new birth - Eph. 2:10
    They can be "seated IN CHRIST" positionally in heavenly places - Eph. 2:6
    They can be experientially "IN HIM" by filling of the Spirit - Eph. 5:18 or have you ever read about "walking" "in him - Col. 2:6
    They can be Metaphorically "IN CHRIST" by church membership - His metaphorical body = 1 Cor. 12:13,27.
    They can be pictorially "in Him" through baptism - Gal. 3:27
    They can be representatively "in Christ" as opposed to "in Adam" - 1 Cor. 15:21

    Now lets look at the context of John 15 and see which way this context is talking about.

    The subject is "fruit" bearing not salvation. In regard to salvation they are already clean - v. 3

    This is about what they are doing - v. 5 "without me ye can do nothing"

    So this is about ones experiential WALKING "in him" - Col. 2:6

    It is not about being chosen, created, represented, pictorial baptism, etc. but about ones EXPERIENTIAL walk or walking by the Holy Spirit.

    Outside of EXPERIENTIAL walking in him "ye can do nothing" not ye are lost.

    The burning here is in relationship to works as in 1 Cor. 3:14-15:

    14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    The reward for fruit production is EXPERIENTIAL:

    1. Ability to do good works - v. 6
    2. Prayers answered - v. 7
    3. Father is glorifeid - v. 8
    4. Continuance in experiential love - vv. 9-10
    5. contnuance in experiential discipleship -
    6. Joy is full - v. 11



    John 15:
    2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
    and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
    3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
    for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
    and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
    and it shall be done for you.
    8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


    your laughing at Christ not us. Paul says BAC are "created in Christ" Jesus first, and experiential in Christ "good works" are the results - Eph. 2:10 not the cause of being "in Christ."

    What you are teaching is the very reverse. You are teaching that good works are the cause for remaining salvationally in Christ instead of experientially in Christ.
     

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