Another Baptizo

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Abiyah, Jan 18, 2003.

  1. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    I nearly asked my question in Glen's thread, but
    I feared leading it astray from his intention.
    Here is what happened.

    I expressed my concern to my husband's
    Nazarene pastor, because he will use whatever
    baptismal mode seems convenient for himself
    and the candidate. I said that the word baptizo
    was created by translators, instead of its direct
    translation, immerse, in order to appease.

    He responded, "You think so? Where did you
    take Greek?"
    "A Baptist school."
    He laughed. "That is why you think that."

    Okay. That is the only Greek language training I
    have had. It was aeons ago, and I have forgotten
    95% of it.

    Can you help me with this? What solid proofs
    would you use to convince either him or me?
     
  2. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    The New Testament Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Number: 907 baptiðzw

    Original Word Word Origin
    baptiðzw from a derivative of (911)

    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    Baptizo bap-tid'-zo
    Parts of Speech TDNT
    1:529,92

    Definition
    to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
    to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
    to overwhelm

    Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.


    Translated Words
    KJV (80) - baptist, 1; baptize, 76; baptized + (2258), 1; wash, 2;
    NAS (76) - Baptist, 3; baptize, 9; baptized, 51; baptizes, 1; baptizing, 10; ceremonially washed, 1; undergo, 1;



    Verse Count
    KJV NAS
    Matthew 8
    Mark 9
    Luke 8
    John 11
    Acts 19
    Romans 1
    1 Corinthians 8
    Galatians 1
    Matthew 6
    Mark 9
    Luke 8
    John 11
    Acts 19
    Romans 1
    1 Corinthians 8
    Galatians 1



    TDNT - Theological Dictionary of the New Testament;
    Copyright Statement
    The New Testament Greek Lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.

    NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries. Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation. All rights reserved.

    Bibliography Information
    Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Baptizo". "The New Testament Greek Lexicon".
    &lt;http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=907&gt;.

    So I bet this isn't what you wanted, right? best I could do.

    Well I tried.
    Sherrie [​IMG]

    [ January 18, 2003, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]
     
  3. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    Thank you, Sherrie. It all certainly reflects what I
    believe and have understood to be historic. I
    guess what i am trying to find out is if anyone
    has seen anything, other than of Catholic and
    similar origin, which says aything other than this,

    And if it is out there, would a Baptist have the
    guts to admit it? 8o)

    I just do not believe that any solid proof of
    another biblical baptism exists!
     
  4. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    Go to a Greek clothier and ask for a garment to be "baptized" in the dye. You would not be very happy if he sprinkled it,,,rather spotty finish....He will not question the meaning of baptize and will immerse the garment in the dye to do a thorough job of it. The word is quite common to Greek cleaners even to this day.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    I want to pick up on Brother James' comments. As I understand it, baptizo was a word used for hundreds of years before the NT originally in the dyer's trade. Like Brother Jim said, you don't dye cloth by sprinkling it with dye, pouring dye on it, or tracing a figure on it. Further, from correspondence dug up in the Koine Greek world, other usages developed playing on the immersion aspect. The one that comes to mind goes somethiong like
    [ January 19, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: The Squire ]
     
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    For the most part, the main arguments I have heard over the years from sprinklers and pourers was, "yes, the N. T. mode was immersion, but it wasn't intended to be dogmatic or universal," or "it really doesn't matter." Abiyah, this may not directly address your question, but I have in my library only one small work that actually attempts to prove that immersion was not the New Testament mode of baptism - Baptism - Its Mode and How Immersion Could Be Obviated by Searching the Word of God. It is a small booklet of 15 pages and is available from the Gospel Tract & Bible Society of the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite, Moundridge, KS 61707. Their arguments seem to be [1] the greater baptism of the Holy Spirit is by pouring and therefore the lesser baptism of water should also be; [2] baptism and pouring are used interchangeably (Jn. 4:14; Mt. 3:ll; Acts 2; Joel 2:28; Acts 1:5); [3] the baptism of Moses & the Israelites in the cloud & in the sea; [4] that pouring is applicable to all climatic conditions and any possible conditions of ailment in the candidate; [5] its harmonization with I John 5:8 (i.e. the Spirit, blood, & water were all poured out); and [6] fulfilled prophecies (e.g. Isa. 44:3; Eze. 36:25; Joel 2:28; Zech. 12:10). They do not really deal with the word baptizo directly. Of course, I do not agree with any of their positions printed, but I did find it interesting that someone was actually making a "scriptural" argument for their practice of pouring.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    And even some of the very first English baptists knew that such was the meaning of the word.

    It was baptizo, active voice, to dip or plunge. So the first HAD to dip himself (middle voice) and then proceed to immerse others.

    Been doing it that way ever since. Same as John and others in the NT had done it. Kinda feels good to be linked in a chain that had roots with our Lord.

    There IS something mystical about this ordinance that transcends my words (or theology).
     
  8. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
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    I am not trying to be conclusive here "for I knoweth not". I do not believe the word "immerse" was active or even thought of until the later half of the 1600's. In other words, it wasn't a word. What choice was available? What choice was best? I believe the one that the Lord gave to us through the preservation of truth.

    Thanks ------Bart
     

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