Another Determinist Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by InTheLight, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. InTheLight

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    If God is in control of everything to the point of determining what I'm going to have for lunch on Friday (see other thread), how can the Holy Spirit be grieved? How can the Holy Spirit be quenched?

    The Bible says,
    "Grieve not the Holy Spirit" Eph. 4:30
    "Quench not the Spirit" 1 Thess 5:19

    Is it God's decreed will that the Spirit is grieved? I don't think so.
    Is it God's permissive will that the Spirit is grieved? I don't think so.

    So how can the Spirit be grieved? Or if you like, why is the Spirit grieved?
     
    #1 InTheLight, Mar 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2012
  2. Amy.G

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    Who are these people who say God has determined what you're having for lunch on Friday?

    The Spirit is grieved when we sin, much like we are grieved when our children make bad choices.
     
  3. 12strings

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    These are too separate questions...the first is the real question you are asking.

    The second question must be answered "YES" unless you believe that God attempted not "Permit" his Spirit being grieved, but was simply unable to prevent it.
     
  4. InTheLight

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    Iconoclast

    Right, so it's God's will that the Spirit is grieved?
     
    #4 InTheLight, Mar 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2012
  5. jbh28

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    Man still has a will. God has allowed man to disobey him. In other words, God has ordained that man will disobey him.
     
  6. InTheLight

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    Bumping, since I haven't gotten an answer that directly addresses my question.

    The Bible says to "grieve not the Spirit." If God is in control of every minute detail, why does He allow Himself to be grieved?
     
  7. convicted1

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    I am on your side of this debate, but remember this. Was God grieved when His Son was crucified? Was not His Son chosen by God for this undertaking? Jesus wanted to please His Father by fulfilling His will. He did this when He hung, bled, and died for us.
     
  8. jbh28

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    This was the answer...

    Now my question for you, are you saying that God is not in control of every detail? There are some things that are not in God's control?
     
    #8 jbh28, Mar 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2012
  9. jonathan.borland

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    No detail is out of God's ultimate control. At some point we, as Spurgeon, have to appeal to mystery as to how God allows man's free will and his sovereignty to co-exist. It is a sobering thought when a tsunami like the one in 2004 wipes out 230,000 people in a single blow, most of whom were lost and are now in hell. People's lives are snuffed out all the time by fellow man or by accidents of nature. Now if you don't appeal to mystery, then go ahead and say that God desired and decreed those 230,000 people to die in that manner and go to hell, and then tell that to the next person before you share the gospel with him since that is part and parcel of the DOCTRINES OF GRACE that IS THE GOSPEL TRUTH! Not me brother!
     
  10. InTheLight

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    Your answer is insufficient. You are saying that God desires that He is grieved.

    God being in control is not necessarily the same as God decreeing it to happen.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    Exactly. How can we possibly understand every thought of God? To get more personal, when your own life falls completely apart, the first thing most of us do is ask why(?). Why me? What did I do wrong? Did I deserve this? Is God punishing me? And like Job, many times God remains silent. We either accept God's sovereignty or turn our backs on Him. Some people cannot believe that a loving God would allow horrible things to happen to them, yet we who love God know that He does. I cannot tell you why. When God tells me, I'll let you know. :)
    But there is no doubt that God is good and we have to hang on to the knowledge that all things work for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  13. jbh28

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    That is true
    Isaiah 45:7 "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things."

    Remember this, those 230,000 people deserved nothing more than to die. None of us deserves to live.

    The Tsunami wasn't out of God's control. It was in God's plan that the tsunami would happen.

    You do remember the flood correct? A few more than 230,000 people died the exact same way.
     
  14. convicted1

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    I agree. We all must die. The tsunami was God's way of fulfilling their appointment.
     
  15. jbh28

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    God sure didn't stop it from happening.


    Sure it is. God has ordained every event that will take place. This doesn't equal God causing every single event to take place. God doesn't cause moral evil to happen. Men commit moral evil. God has ordained to allow certain evil event to take place. Nothing ever happens outside of God's control. If it does, then God isn't sovereign if he doesn't have control over a situation.

    You are dealing with the problem of evil.

    1. God is good.
    2. God is omnipotent
    3. Evil exists.

    Why did God allow evil...aka why does God allow people to grieve him. We appeal to mystery. We don't know the answer.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

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    A little devotional reading of Deut 29:29; Isaiah 58:8-9, and Romans 11:33-36 might not be a bad idea.
    Where do we get the idea that we can psycho-analyze God?
    'Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than heaven- what can you do? Deeper than Sheol- what can you know?' (Job 11:7-8).

    Steve
     
  17. quantumfaith

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    Jbh, also recall after, God made a covenant to never again wipe all life away with a flood. Now, perhaps HE will just wipe away a few hundred thousand here and there, which is certainly in his right and authority. To say that HE intended and caused it, we (you and I ) cannot say with any degree of absolute certainty. What we can say, and we are promised, is that all things will most certainly "work together" for the good of believers.
     
  18. jonathan.borland

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    I've used that one with an atheist before. You know, we all die, some get a few more years than others, but we all must die. It's true, but it usually doesn't go over so well when discussing the compatibility of God's goodness with the destruction and damnation of the mostly poor whose cause God is said to defend.

    I've tried different approaches. The appeal to mystery is also not very effective. One has to be a good witness of God's glory and salvation. So always bringing it back to one's individual accountability to God when judgment day comes is where I take it. What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and yet forfeits his soul. I cannot speak for the chances others may or may not have had. But you at this moment are confronted with God's demand to repent and believe in him.
     
  19. jbh28

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    I thought of that as well. Key point was all the world. Obviously God wasn't promising no more floods. But we do know that God brings disasters. That we can say with certainty. We cannot say why there as a Tsunami. I would say that all calamity is a result of our sin. I don't believe we will have floods and disasters in heaven.

    yes!
     
  20. jbh28

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    Give the gospel to the atheist. the problem of evil is one of the biggest questions atheist have. Usually it's more to argue against us than true questions I'm saddened to say.
     

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