Another passage in which many struggle

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    Rather than me expressing an opinion, I figured I would let the words of Christ teach the truth.

    The High Priest prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ has areas in which some struggle.

    John 17:

    Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

    13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
    20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

    22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
    25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”





    Pop quiz:

    This is not an exhaustive survey of your reading comprehension, and nobody is going to receive a grade on how well you did.


    Without looking back, how would you answer the following questions?

    If you need help with this open book exam, then look back. :)





    Who gave whom to who? answered in verse 2.

    Who had ownership over them BEFORE they were given to Christ? answered in verse 6

    Was this prayer offered to the whole world or to the selected ones? answer in 9

    Will any of the ones selected be lost? answer in verse 12 Which is the only one who was not kept? Why? answer in verse 12

    Did this prayer include any others or was it limited to the disciples? answered in verse 20

    For what purpose are these included? answer in verse 21 and 23

    How will the world ever know of Christ? answer in verse 23

    Who will be with Christ? answer in verse 24

    When did God express love to Christ? answer in verse 24

    Does the world know God? answer in verse 25

    How is the believer to be characterized? answer in verse 26
     
  2. convicted1

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    48th view and the first reply. Limited atonement has given me the most struggle as I have attempted to delve deeper into my beliefs. I have always been under the belief that Christ did, indeed, die for all, yet knowing that only a few, few in comparison to those who die lost, will be saved. But here is a prime example, imo, of Jesus praying for God's elect, the church, the bride, etc. The more I study, the more the "L" shines through.
     
  3. Winman

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    How do you get Limited Atonement out of this prayer Willis? There is not one word saying Jesus only died for a few select persons in this prayer.
     
  4. DrJamesAch

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    There's several verses within this passage that blow the lid off of Limited Atonement.

    *Judas was one of the 12 that was specifically said to have been GIVEN to Christ, and yet he was lost. Jesus said "have I not CHOSEN you twelve and one of you is a devil". So GIVEN and CHOSEN do not have the same definitions that the Calvinist gives it.

    *Jesus clearly stated that all were kept BUT the son of perdition. That "BUT" means he was still in the clique even though he was lost. So either someone lost their salvation, or election, chosen and given do not mean what Calvinists say it means.

    *John 17:17 Jesus says "SANCTIFY THEM with thy truth. Thy word is truth" Now here's the grenade. WHY IS JESUS ASKING THE FATHER TO SANCTIFY THEM NOW IF THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN ELECTED AND LIMITED FROM ETERNITY???

    Now lets see how many Calvies come out of the closet and try to reinterpret 2 Thess 2:13 about predetermined sanctification and explain this conundrum.

    "Houston we have a problem":BangHead:
     
  5. webdog

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    I was wondering the same thing. One has to approach this text looking specifically for that, but as has been shown, there is much in this passage (and throughout the Bible) specifically refuting it. That prayer is directed to His 12 (one of which was clearly not 'elect') and those who He states 'believe in Me'. Nothing whatsoever hinting at a specific prayer to the select few 'elect' in the Calvinist sense, one must read that into the text. At any rate, those who believe would be considered the elect, not elect TO believe.
     
    #5 webdog, Jul 10, 2013
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  6. agedman

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    Who gave whom to who? answered in verse 2.

    Who had ownership over them BEFORE they were given to Christ? answered in verse 6

    Was this prayer offered to the whole world or to the selected ones? answer in 9

    Will any of the ones selected be lost? answer in verse 12

    Which is the only one who was not kept? Why? answer in verse 12

    Did this prayer include any others or was it limited to the disciples? answered in verse 20

    For what purpose are these included? answer in verse 21 and 23
     
  7. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    Just a quick contribution from my notes for those Calvinist/Determinist who are still struggling with this passage:

    The Determinists looks through his systematic glasses at the phrase, “thou gavest them me” (John 17:6) as it would imply “not by faith...but by pure grace,” as in Irresistible Grace? Yet, concerning those the Father gave Him Jesus stated prior to this: “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45) Which, of course, maintains the Biblical order of salvation (Eph 1:13).

    …and those the Father gave Christ the Calvinists take part of truth in Ephesians 1:4, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,” and forgo the rest of the truth that these were given, “In Christ”.

    “If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers

    From my notes showing Paul mentions, “In Him,” “In Christ,” “In the Beloved,” in the first 13 verse of Ephesians:
    The Biblical order of salvation concerning how those the Father gave Christ would also have to be ignored:

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

    …”In Christ”.


    John 17:20-21 must be then be reexamined without the glasses: “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.”

    Found in my notes from previous study on the subject of Calvinist’ fitting John 17 into their system, it was explained like this from someone not of that persuasion:
    Hate to throw a monkey wrench into the aforementioned Calvinism coming out party and this claim that “other’s may struggle” with these verses, but John 17:20-21 doesn’t support Limited Atonement in the least, it refutes it!


    John 17:20-21
    “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

     
    #7 Benjamin, Jul 10, 2013
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  8. The Biblicist

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    Not so! God's purpose of election is "chosen TO salvation" and the only sphere of salvaiton is "in Christ" as outside of Christ there is no salvation but only the wrath of God (Jn. 3:36). Furthermore, not only the persons, purpose, and sphere are chosen by God but the means to that end are chosen also by God "through sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth." Hence, you are simply taking PART of the truth while ignoring the rest. Election has a people, a purpose, a sphere and a process and one cannot be considered without the other.

    If you are really interested in the true Biblical order then why start at the end of the passage? The order does not start in time but in eternity (Eph. 1:4). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 gives the order - (1) Chosen by God in eternity past (2)unto salvation in time within the only sphere of savlation "in Christ" (3) through chosen means to obtain that salvation (4) sanctification of the Spirit and (5) the belief of the truth.




    Better go look for your glasses as you need help. He explicitly states he does not pray for the world but only those given him out of the world - the elect or those in verse 2 "as many as thou has given me." Those in verses 21 are present believers and future believers or "as many as thou hast given me." He already made it clear in John 6 that the only ones who come to him in faith are those given by the Father and ALL of them come and none "of all" given shall be lost, including those yet to beleive in the future due to the same chronological process.
     
  9. Benjamin

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    2Th 2:13
    (13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    The common Determinist agenda of presenting half the truth and then riding on systematic presumptions to fit 2Th 2:13 into the mistaken doctrine of Unconditional election does not change the Biblical order which is clearly given in Eph 1:13 and maintained throughout the Bible.

    The proof-text you offer here along with beginning on the common MO of circling back smokescreens to attempt to distort the Biblical Order of Salvation is merely another example of a misguided attempt to do so by again using the common strategy that has not escaped my detection ;) and has been articulately expressed here by Adrian Rogers:

    “If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers

    You simply just offer more of the same, believing as you’ve been systematically taught that ½ of a truth somehow works to proof-text your Determinist’ system.

    “If you are really interested in the true Biblical order” you must let go of your focusing on it as if this truth could be built into fitting Determinist doctrines, which necessarily requires changing the Biblical order, though taking only half.

    Does 2Th 2:13 say that He choose them to believe? No, you are reading that into the text, I’m afraid those glasses will do that to you. Nor, does the text say God has established an eternally elect caste to fulfill the Determinists’ doctrines of Unconditional election as if this was for the “purpose” of “displaying God’s various attributes, - v14” and that these spoken of comprise a portion of that elect caste. Yet, these two essential ingredients necessary to fit the Calvinist system, which they will insist it means are completely absent from the text.

    No, the means of salvation is by grace through faith (“not by pure Irresistible grace”), after hearing the Gospel, by which after one believes and after that through the Grace of God the believer is sealed in the spirit…In Christ.

    You give a great example how the Determinist has been pre-programmed to read into the kind of “salvation” (2Th 2:13) to be talking about as being Unconditional election BUT the kind of salvation being spoken has not suddenly changed and remains as clearly presented in Eph 1:13 that it is “through” and/or “in” Christ…by faith.

    The kind of salvation being spoken of Thessalonians is deliverance from wrath (not a sudden varying change of Biblical order:rolleyes:); that is the intended meaning which is being discussed in that text:

    1Th 5:9
    (9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    The “you” being spoken of in 2Th 2:13 is the same as the “us” (Paul’s Brethren) in 1Th 5:9 referring to salvation from tribulation in regards to the “beginning” indicating the first in a series to come “in Christ”, the “first born of the dead” directly relating to being sealed in that spirit of promise, made to all, as per the “unchanging” Biblical order of salvation referring to being “in Him” (Eph 1:13, and “in Christ” 11 times, in the first 13 verses of Ephesians, which BTW demonstrates the context of v4 – which you once again try to dissect out from the context – this has already been addressed, circle boy:rolleyes:...) from creation:

    Col 1:18
    (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    BTW, I’m sorry to tell you that what you claiming to see “clear” in John 6 is only because of the focus through those glasses again. ;)

    Reading your mistaken made to fit half-truth into this concerning the whole truth regarding John 6:45 (I’ve also already answered that and shown it to fit the Biblical order) as IF this changes the Biblical Order and then reading that back into your mistaken made to fit interpretations of John 17 does not help your attempt to change the Biblical order in the in the least.

    Nice try, but two wrongs, or even three if we include your proof-texting attempt at 2Th 2:13, doesn’t make a right, or a truth (nor does it support a false doctrine of changing the Biblical order in an attempt it to fit the Determinist system).
     
    #9 Benjamin, Jul 11, 2013
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  10. The Biblicist

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    Ephesians 1:13 gives the order in connection with gospel conversion not the order in regard to election as election precedes any order in time as election occcurred BEFORE time. Election is presented as the cause (2 Thes. 2:13) not the consequence. Ephesians 1:13 is contained in the consequential order found in the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" in 2 Thes. 2:13. No amount of Biblical gynastics can change the fact that "salvation" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is the direct object of the preposition "eis" while "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" is the direct objects of the preposition "dia." The term "salvation" is the direct object of "chosen" while the prepositional phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" is the indirect object of chosen. The primary cause is found in "chosen" which occurred before the foundation of the world NOT in the secondary instrumental cause of the "dia" prepositional phrase.


    I knew Dr. Rogers personally. I was a student at Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary and met him on several occassions while working on the Staff at Mid-America. He was great man of God but wrong on this issue.




    In fact it most certainly does and the grammar proves it. Study the relationship of the two prespositions "eis" and "dia" in relationship to "chosen." Indeed, Christ is the "AUTHOR" of our faith and faith is the "GIFT" of God (Heb. 12:2, Philip. 1:19; Eph. 2:8).



    Look at 1 Thes. 1:4-5! It will tell you how you can know you are one of God's elect. Election is manifested by the gospel coming in special "power" and in the Holy Spirit and much assurance whereas to the non-elect is does not come in this saving power. Your rational is irrational and difficult to even make sense of the point you are trying desperately to make.


    You simply do not know what you are talking about. For example, do you know which passage in Isaiah Jesus is quoting in John 6:45? Check it out and see if it is applied to the "world" or to his "children." Second, do you realize the same Greek term translated "all" in the Isaiah quotation is exactly the same Greek term translated "every one" in the second part of the verse?? Hence, "all" equals "everyone." Now look at the conclusion of that final sentence and ask yourself this question; do "every one" that is taught and learns of the Father come to the Son or only some??
     
  11. Benjamin

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    You might as well deny the power of the Gospel to bring faith to whosoever hears it…

    Besides that you’ve merely begged the question and tried to force fit predetermined election while once again ignoring the truth of the Biblical order of salvation, nothing more. Sadly while you unwittingly deny and discount the power of the Gospel to convert in an attempt to inject regeneration as preceding faith, which in effect is an effort to change the Inspired Word (to fit “your” system) that clearly gives us the order of salvation through faith before being sealed in the spirit – which then these become the elect, in Christ! Scroll up, no need to repeat this circle…

    The rest of your reply has played right into my hand in that it has been accurately predicted and serves to make my point in that the typical Calvinist would insist on seeing things that are not in this text:

    You’re attempt at Greek gymnastics doesn’t place the non-existent meanings from the Calvinist in the text anymore than the English does. Put your Greek card back in your pocket…

    I say:
    And then you say:
    :laugh: Talk about gymnastics, you've simply tried to do it in Greek!…

    “because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

    Read the text for what it actually says in light of the Truth of the Word throughout denoting the undeniable power of the Gospel to bring those who believe in Christ, which is seen first in the unchanging Biblical order of salvation which given for all! This verse speaks within that unchanging order in that God has – upon your hearing of the Gospel. Chosen you to salvation. He has taken you out of the world and placed you in the way of glory – within the context of this passage of avoiding wrath! NO WHERE does this passage SAY or EVEN SUGGEST that God chosen them to believe!

    Oh, but I’m talking about you reading in things that aren’t there and wouldn’t even be consistent. For instance, you take this passage in Isaiah of Him speaking to the “present” believing little children and try to force fit to your theology of predetermination, so typical, but there you go again on the half-truths, all one would have to do is compare what else these little children are told:

    1Jn 2:1-2
    (1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Yeah, takes a specialized club gym member card to work the magical gymnastics on that verse to fit your system, eh? ;)

    Also seems you haven’t noticed the connection I made previously is still clearly hanging over your head in that it demonstrates you have still maintained the same problem of the Calvinist convenient and typical failure to separate those who have been given from those who will be given as previously nailed to your system in this example:

    Next:
    LOL…give me break on this Elitist Greek card stuff of yours, would ya…you must be getting desperate if trying to use the detour of resorting to the Calvinist funny business on “all,” “world,” and “everyone” off your Greek card. Too funny, you guys are in a world of your own alright! :laugh:

    Well, appears here we’ve gone full circle through your attempts to proof-text the U & I in your system all to attempt justify putting the L into John 17 and are right back there, of which the plain reading of it without your presumptions shows clearly that there are 3 groups included in who Jesus is praying for here:

    1) the disciples that were given,

    2) those also who believe through the disciples, who were also given,

    3) the world, insomuch that “the world may believe.”

    No limiting there...

    So, after this rabbit chase you still have the problems of ignoring the Biblical order of salvation, you’ve failed to allow for giving in the present for those who are yet to come while sticking to your definitions, it’s merely become more clear that you are in the habit of seeing things (through those funny glasses) that aren’t there and are still stuck on trying to ride on half-truths to support your system at every turn...

    :sleeping_2:
     
    #11 Benjamin, Jul 11, 2013
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  12. The Biblicist

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    There is no saving power in the Gospel apart from the Holy Spirit applying it. It is this application in power that is the effectual call and proof of election according to Paul in 1 Thes. 1:4-5 and 1 Cor. 1:26-31 and Romans 8:30 as in each case only the elect are the subjects and this call separates them (through sanctification of the Spirt) unto the gospel ("and belief of the truth"). The power is in God's use of the gospel not yours or mine.



    No, I have demonstrated your intepretation is impossible as the Greek grammar and construction of 2 Thessalonias 2:13 forbid your interpretation.

    I have pointed out the logical fallacy of starting with Epheisans 1:13 when the text both in chronology and order begins with Ephesians 1:4 as causal and verse 13 is consequential rather than the reverse as you present it.




    Hardly, as I am the only one between us that has demonstrated a position based upon the grammatical and structural evidence in 2 Thes. 2:13. You have had no response but just unfounded assertions that have no basis in the text.



    Well if you have no Greek background or English grammar background I guess this is your only hope is to call it gynastics when it is the plain grammatical facts that any grammarian can verify. The direct object of chosen is "you" and direct object of the preposition "eis" is "salvation" while the direct object of the preposition "dia" is "sanctification of the Spirt and belief of the truth." There is a logical cause and effect relationship in the structure that simply does not support your interpetation. I did not write it.


    You are reading into the text what is simply not there. The power of the gospel is found in the phrase "sanctification of the Spirit" as the gospel itself has no power apart from the Holy Spriit. This is precisely how one knows they are God's elect because the gospel does not come "in word only" but "in power" - 1 Thes. 1:4-5.



    Again, he has chosen them "to" salvation and this salvation is obtained also "through" the sanctification (setting apart) of the Holy Spirit AND belief of the truth." God has chosen the people "you" and chosen the end "to salvation" and chosen the means to attain that end "through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." It is just that clear and that simple. May God remove your blinders.


    First, I am not the one quoting this passage in Isaiah but Christ is! So your beef is against Christ not I, since I neither quoted it or wrote it.

    Second, you are jerking John 6:44-45 out of context. He is not addressing "believing" children but addressing UNBELIEVERS (vv. 41-43)denying anyone can come to Christ except God draw them (v. 44) and explain who is drawn and how they are drawn in verse 45. You cannot just jerk John 6:44-45 out of its context and insert it into a completely different context in the epistle of first John! Why not rewrite your own bible as you go?????

    This is a pointless discussion as you have absolutey no objectivity. You demonstrate you could care less about scriptural context of verses and pluck them out and place them where it suits you due to feelings. Nothing here to base a reasonable discussion upon.
     
  13. Benjamin

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    Your failure to recognize objectivity is what makes this discussion pointless

    Ditto...
     
  14. Iconoclast

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  15. Iconoclast

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    Good job biblicist....it was as if you addessed the three blind mice, they could not see it.

    You quote the passage from Isa54 and they make excuses,,lol...but many others enjoy seeing the truth stated contrasting the error!
     
  16. webdog

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    p

    This is ridiculous. The Gospel in itself IS the work of the Spirit. Its like saying the Spirit is powerless unless the Spirit first works. Fairy tale theology.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    The Spirit is not the Gospel. The gospel is a message while the Holy Spirit is a Person. The gospel can come in "word only" and not "in power" or "in the Holy Spirit" (1 Thes. 1:5).

    Indeed, if that was not a fact, then Paul's reasons for knowing they are God's elect is pointless:

    4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
    5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake
    .

    If the gospel came equally to all men in power then there is no point in Paul's clarification of "knowing....your election" by how the gospel came to them.

    Also in 2 Thessalonians they were "chosen to salvation" THROUGH "sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth" demonstrating again that election is manfiested by the power of the Spirit in connection with the truth of the gospel.
     
  18. Herald

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    The actual work of the gospel is Jesus' death and resurrection. The Holy Spirit is the One who gives the message of the gospel power. Perhaps it seems like straining at gnats, but really it is not. There are some who believe that the actual words in print have power; that somehow the ink on paper is the "power of God" (Rom. 1:16). While the gospel is the power of God, it is because of the Holy Spirit. The gospel does not regenerate, it is the Holy Spirit that regenerates (Acts 2:38, 39). Ephesians 1:13 is a very clear picture of this.

    The gospel's power comes via the Holy Spirit.
     
  19. webdog

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    1. Nobody said anything about the Spirit being the gospel.

    2. The fact men reject it does not mean it lacks power.

    3. We are chosen by the work of the Spirit (the gospel) and belief in its truth.
     
  20. MB

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    Are you becoming a Calvinist willis.? The atonement is for every man woman and child. Just how do you get a limitation out of that? He died that the whole world might be saved. The atonement is there. It's just not every persons believes so that it can be applied.
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