Another pre-trib rapture position

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by James_Newman, Dec 14, 2004.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    This is for the pre-trib guys on the board. I understand that many of us here think there is no pre-trib rapture or that all of revelation was fulfilled in AD 70. This is not about whether or not the pre-trib rapture is biblical or not. Rather, for those of us who do believe the pre-trib doctrine, I would like to discuss who goes in the pre-trib rapture.

    I believe that the rapture is conditional, that God promises to keep overcoming believers from the hour of temptation, but others may be required to go through the tribulation. Common teaching is that all believers will be taken in the pre-trib rapture and that only people in the trib will be new converts? and Jews? I would like to know what verses are used to support this theory, or if this is just a traditional teaching.

    So, to reiterate, how can we teach a pre-tribulation rapture that includes all believers?
     
  2. servant-96

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    This is a big piece of meat. This is a question that needs some foundation work. I think the best way, or easiest way to see the pre-trib point of view, is to first understand that there are two resurrections. "Blessed and Holy are those who are part of the first resurrection(Rev. 20:6). These will not see the 2nd death as to those who are part of the 2nd resurrection. Now, the first resurrection is in three parts, four if you want to get technical. I'm not counting Enoch, or Elijah because they are "figures" of the true. The first resurrection began with Jesus and many of the Old Testament Saints(Matt. 27:52,53). This is the "first fruits"(1Cor.15:23) of the harvest. Then comes the "main harvest", which is the Body of Christ, the church, or Bride(1Cor.15:23, 1Thess.4:13-18)This is what Enoch is a type of. Being raptured out, before the wrath of God, whereas Noah, type of the Jew, is carried by Christ, (clean and unclean together) through the flood. Then you have the "gleanings". The final pick of the harvest. These are the Saints in the Tribulation and the two witnesses. So the first resurrection consists of:

    1. Christ, the firstfruits
    2. The body
    3. Trib. saints, two witnesses

    THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION(Rev. 20:5) and the rest of the dead(lost) lived not again(still in hell) for a thousand years.
     
  3. James_Newman

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    The saints in the tribulation are gleanings?

    Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    If the body is pictured as the main harvest, it would have to take place after the 144 thousand, who we are told here are firstfruits.
     
  4. rjprince

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    JN,

    Would love to respond. I only get about 24 hours in my days and I sleep some of that time, eat, travel, etc. Hope to return with time to add some substance to the discussion. For now would suggest www.pre-trib.org. I know I have seen some articles re "partial rapture" there. If you can get John Walvoord's Rapture Question, he gives a substantial treatment to the "partial rapture" position.

    Hope to make it back while this one is still active.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Acts 10:34 (KJV1769):

    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said,
    Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    It is the nature of God to not respect persons.
    I believe at the beginning of the 70th week
    of Daniel (AKA: Tribulation Period) all saints
    at the time will be raptured/resurreced at the same
    time. It is God's nature to do that.

    The problem I see is that encouraging words, for
    us to do the right thing, are mistaken.
    We are do good works because we are saved.
    (BTW, one thing we are saved from is having to
    suffer hell come to earth, AKA: Daniel's 70th
    week, the Wrath of God, the Tribulation Period, etc.).
    We do not do good works to get saved (like from
    the wrath of God during the Tribulation Period.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

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    James,

    you saying rapture is conditional. I disagree.

    Your beliefs sound like partial rapture to me.

    I do not agree with partial rapture.

    Rapture is not condition. Rapture is for EVERYONE both believers and unbelievers shall be gathering at Christ's coming. Matt. 25:31-33 tell us, when Christ shall come, he shall send his angels to gathering ALL people of the world, separate unbelievers from believers, bring two groups to Jesus Christ, and all of us shall face judgement seat of Christ. All unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting fire, because their names are not find written in the book of life.

    Luke 21:36 speaks of WATCH and PRAY is conditional, if we do not watch and pray, we shall face judgments, and face before Christ sits on throne, to cast us away into everlasting fire.

    Luke 21:36 does not saying about the timing of rapture. It speaks of being watch and pray, because we all shall face judgement seat of Christ to judge us at His coming. IF we do not watch and pray, He shall come upon us as thief in the night, to take us away into everlasting fire.

    Bible commands us, that we must watch and pray, so, we shall not be asahamed being catch up as thief in the night to judge us at Christ's throne. Apostle Paul urges us that we must be blameless at Christ's coming, because we all shall face the judgement seat of Christ.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. servant-96

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    The reference that you are quoting are the 144,000 Jewish Missionaries sent by God to preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom"(Matt.24:14), not the "Gospel of the Grace of God". That door is closed at this point in time. In Rev. 14, the church is in heaven. In fact, you won't see the church again until Rev. 19, when the door is re-opened. Yes, these are the gleanings, the firstfruits of the Kingdom period. Another thing you have to keep in mind that at the rapture of the church starts the "Day of the Lord". That day is to us a thousand years. So that day includes, The first resurrection, Christ/firstfruits, body, trib/witnesses and the physical coming with all the Saints to set up a kingdom for a thousand years here on earth. That thousand years is the blessings of Israel promised them, which we get to be part of. The problem with post doctrine, they don't rightly divide the Word of Truth.
     
  8. James_Newman

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    I understand that you don't believe the rapture is pre-trib, DPT. This is not that discussion, however. I disagree 100% with your interpretation of Luke 21:36. There is nothing in the scripture about being ashamed. You say that there is nothing in it about timing either?

    Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    It says escape all these things, not some of these things, not shame at the judgment seat. What all these things is it talking about? Well, if you read the verses preceding, He is speaking about the tribulation. How could you escape all these things without God taking you out of the way?

    Lu 21:35
    For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    The 'all these things' is the timing, the escape comes before 'all these things.'
     
  9. James_Newman

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    The reference that you are quoting are the 144,000 Jewish Missionaries sent by God to preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom"(Matt.24:14), not the "Gospel of the Grace of God". That door is closed at this point in time. In Rev. 14, the church is in heaven. In fact, you won't see the church again until Rev. 19, when the door is re-opened. Yes, these are the gleanings, the firstfruits of the Kingdom period. Another thing you have to keep in mind that at the rapture of the church starts the "Day of the Lord". That day is to us a thousand years. So that day includes, The first resurrection, Christ/firstfruits, body, trib/witnesses and the physical coming with all the Saints to set up a kingdom for a thousand years here on earth. That thousand years is the blessings of Israel promised them, which we get to be part of. The problem with post doctrine, they don't rightly divide the Word of Truth. </font>[/QUOTE]Servant, your picture is broken. Yes, the gleanings are the firstfruits? What does that mean? Are you implying there are two harvests? Show me this in scripture. I only see one harvest, and the ingathering occurs here:
    Re 14
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    The firstfruits come before the harvest. If there is a rapture of the saints before this occurs, then they must be considered firstfruits as well. I don't think you can show me the harvest of the jews and the harvest of the church as separate instances.
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

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    Does Christ actually saying 'all of these things' mean seven year of tribulation period?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  11. James_Newman

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    Doesn't matter, thats not really what were talking about. Whatever you believe 'escape all these things that shall come to pass' means is not pertinent to the discussion if it does not refer to the pre-trib rapture, because the pre-trib rapture is what is being discussed. I know you are post trib and somehow this verse means something other than what I believe it means. I am trying to find out how we pre-tribs think we can show a pretrib rapture that includes all believers.

    If you would like to start another thread specifically to discuss luke 21:36, please do. I would love to participate.
     
  12. servant-96

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    The reference that you are quoting are the 144,000 Jewish Missionaries sent by God to preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom"(Matt.24:14), not the "Gospel of the Grace of God". That door is closed at this point in time. In Rev. 14, the church is in heaven. In fact, you won't see the church again until Rev. 19, when the door is re-opened. Yes, these are the gleanings, the firstfruits of the Kingdom period. Another thing you have to keep in mind that at the rapture of the church starts the "Day of the Lord". That day is to us a thousand years. So that day includes, The first resurrection, Christ/firstfruits, body, trib/witnesses and the physical coming with all the Saints to set up a kingdom for a thousand years here on earth. That thousand years is the blessings of Israel promised them, which we get to be part of. The problem with post doctrine, they don't rightly divide the Word of Truth. </font>[/QUOTE]Servant, your picture is broken. Yes, the gleanings are the firstfruits? What does that mean? Are you implying there are two harvests? Show me this in scripture. I only see one harvest, and the ingathering occurs here:
    Re 14
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    The firstfruits come before the harvest. If there is a rapture of the saints before this occurs, then they must be considered firstfruits as well. I don't think you can show me the harvest of the jews and the harvest of the church as separate instances.
    </font>[/QUOTE]First of all, there is a big difference between the church and Israel. They are not the same. The church is no longer on the earth after Rev. 4, and does not come back until Rev. 19. The church is raptured out before the first seal is opened. The trib period is for Israel and their rejection of the Godhead, not the church. Notice another thing, the church sings a new song(Rev.5:9), whereas the trib saints(Jews) sing the song of Moses(Rev. 15:3). Israel is not the Bride of Christ, nor are they at the wedding. They are the friends of the groom(Jn. 3:29) who are the guest at the wedding supper of the Lamb(Lu.12:36).
     
  13. James_Newman

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    This is absolutely showing a pre-trib rapture, but it doesn't show that all believers are here.

    Rev 5:8-10
    (8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    (9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    (10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

    If reigning is conditioned on suffering, then these four and twenty elders have suffered for Christ. They sing that they have been made kings and priests, and they will reign on the earth. If there were any there that had not suffered, but had denied Him, they would not be able to make this statement. Those that will be raptured before the tribulation are the ones who were 'ripe' at his return for the firstfruits. Unless you have anything I've missed, the unconditional pre-trib rapture teaching is tradition and it does not hold up in the light of scripture.
     
  14. servant-96

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    The rapture is not conditional, reigning is. All those that are in Christ(saved) will be unconditionally raptured. Not all Christians will reign on the earth. Oh no, some will be serving for a thousand years. They will not enter into God's rest because of their unbelief or lack of service to God now.
     
  15. James_Newman

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    The rapture is not conditional, reigning is. All those that are in Christ(saved) will be unconditionally raptured. Not all Christians will reign on the earth. Oh no, some will be serving for a thousand years. They will not enter into God's rest because of their unbelief or lack of service to God now. </font>[/QUOTE]These saints are reigning. Where are the ones that go up before the tribulation and sing the 'we get to hold doors and wash cars in the kingdom and we will serve a thousand years' song?

    What about this statement made to the Philadelphian church?
    Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Keep thee from the hour of temptation, BECAUSE thou hast kept the word of my patience.
     
  16. prophecynut

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    Those taken up before the Trib are the Church saints sitting on thrones reigning with the Lamb in chapter 5. Near the end of the Trib they are seen again on these thrones along with the soles of those beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus (Rev. 20:4).
     
  17. James_Newman

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    Try hitting refresh, I think you missed the rest of my question, p-nut.
     
  18. prophecynut

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    Duh, let me try again :confused:

    The rapture, which immediately precedes the destruction of the day of the Lord will be compose of all believers on earth, all those left behind are spiritually dead.

    All those not born again by the Holy Spirit will not participate in the Rapture.

    The destruction of that day begins with the fall of Babylon, and begins "the hour of his judgment"(Rev. 14:7). Immediately after its fall the mark of the beast is implemented (8-11), and a voice from heaven says "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on"(13). These saints who are physically alive, but spiritually
    dead right after the rapture will be martyred in the Lord. If they had been born again Christians, indwelled with the Holy Spirit they would have participated in the Rapture
     
  19. James_Newman

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    Your not making an argument for a total rapture, you are making an assumption of a total rapture. Your whole mid-week position is based on this assumption for which you have no scripture. You cant say 'All Christians go, so here we know it is all Christians' unless you can show me that all Christians go. Unless you want to try to make the case that all Christians will be found worthy of reigning, then your teaching conditional security and that is a whole other subject.
     
  20. James_Newman

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    Who does Luke 21:36 apply to, if it is not exhorting believers to be ready for the rapture? The one verse that would easily provide for a pre-tribulation escape (that is what it says, isn't it?) but no-one is willing to apply it to Christians because it says you must be accounted worthy. Watch and pray. Who else could pray to be accounted worthy? Can an unbeliever pray hard enough to be worthy to escape the tribulation?
     

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