Another question for Calvinists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, Jan 2, 2011.

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  1. Winman

    Winman
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    "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

    If God determines every event that ever occurs as most Calvinists believe, why would he do something that grieves him at his own heart? And why would he ever repent of something he had determined? If he determined that sin would enter the world, then why would it grieve him, and why would he repent when his very will came to pass?

    I will wait a bit before I respond to this, I want to see what Cals and DoGs have to say. Non-Cals are welcome to give their opinions as well.
     
  2. charles_creech78

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    How can God not know the events that occurs when everything he does is to his will and his glory? Would not be much of his will if he did not know about it. Noah also found Grace in the eyes of the Lord and God knew that! God bless.:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
     
  3. preachinjesus

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    The double determinism of some fringe Reformed proponents is biblically, theologically, and philosophically untenable.

    You can't make a realistic case for hardcore determinism from Scripture. That's why most Reformed theologians believe in a degree of free moral agency outside of the means of salvation.

    Most Reformed/Calvinist theologians aren't determinists in this manner.
     
  4. StefanM

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    What is the alternative? That God didn't know that man would turn out this way?

    Before he created the world, he knew this would happen. Could he have done things differently? Sure, but he didn't. He knew it was coming, and he permitted it to happen.
     
  5. MB

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    I can't answer for Calvinist. The way I see it is that God knew before hand what would happen when He created man. He knew that His Law would have a by-product, called sin.
    Yet the Law was necessary to give men an all important choice.
    Adam had a choice but he Loved Eve more than God and ate the fruit anyway. Eve was tempted and deceived by Satan causing her to desire to be like God. When she ate the fruit she knew good and evil but it was to late. Adam knew it as well and because he loved her so much decided to eat of the fruit as well so he wouldn't loose Eve.

    With out the choice they made God would never see any Love from either of them
    The whole reason God created man IMHO is that men would love Him.

    Love has a value to God and us, and it's measured by the willingness to love.
    Paul wrote about a demonstration of love.
    2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
    2Co 8:10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
    2Co 8:11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
    2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
    I believe He repented of it because of what He had to do to get the effect He wanted from man. With out choice to do the opposite there is no will involved. With out willingness there is no demonstration of love. Christ was rich and became poor because He loves man so much. His demonstration of love to me is the most valuable thing in Salvation. There simply would have been no salvation with out His wonderful love and it being demonstrated more than once.
    We have to understand that doing something you know you're going to regret later to achieve your goal is most difficult. In order for God to have a demonstration of real love for Him. He had to give Adam that choice. We've all inherited Adam's sin nature and sin is necessary for there to be a choice. If there were only good there would be no choice. No demonstration of love towards God.

    I read a poem once that really made me think. It was about love but in the poem the writer realized that if you love someone and you let them go free. They will come back to you if they really loved you in the first place. If not at least you'll know they never really cared. I wish I remembered the words to it but that was a long time ago.
    MB
     
  6. preachinjesus

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    Foreknowledge doesn't equal determination.
     
  7. StefanM

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    In a strict sense, you are correct.

    However, by virtue of God's omniscience, although he is not primarily responsible for the acts, he is aware that they will inevitably occur in the world he creates.
     
  8. charles_creech78

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    Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Sounds to me God know all things! I just don't understand why someone would not believe God knows all things. How can you build a house and not make plains to build it. I just don't see God with a eye of faith building a heaven and a earth and not plain it first or know something about it first. You have to know the beginning to get to the end! How you going to get to the store if you don't KNOW how to get there? I don't know about you but I serve a all wise and living God who knows how many hairs are on my head. God bless!
     
  9. quantumfaith

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    I agree whole heartedly with you. Even science has begun to obtain "hints" of this in the world of quantum mechanics. Although, I do not believe that God is ever "surprised" by anything that occurs or that He did not, or could not know it.
     
  10. quantumfaith

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    Winman, my personal view of God "repenting" is that it is simply an anthropomorphism. Scripture is without a doubt the Word of our God, but He used human means to record it as well. For now, that is as about as deep as I can get.
     
  11. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    Sorry, but I disagree.
     
  13. Winman

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    LOL, I knew these verses would give Cals/DoGs a tough time. Truth is, they are just as difficult for non-Cals.

    Isn't it true that at times God appears to be a paradox? The language of these verses strongly implies he never intended man to be evil, else why would he be grieved and say "it repenteth me that I have made them." This also implies that he is surprised that man went bad.

    At the same time we have much scripture that supports that God is infinite in knowledge, knows everything, and is in complete control of everything that happens.

    Can both be true at the same time?

    Chew on that awhile.
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    Aaaaaww. NO.

    It is not a paradox.

    The point of a paradox, is that what creates the appearance of contradiction is not the facts, but the words. The contradiction is verbal, but not real.


    What we see in Scripture is not paradoxical, because what we read is not just a play on words, but true and real. In God there is no contradiction, only truth.
     
  15. Winman

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    Great, then explain it.
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    Have you ever been sailing?
     
  17. annsni

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    Why does it imply that God was surprised? There's another passage that is a little questionable and that is Jesus in the garden. Why did He pray that God take the cup away? Did He really think God would do that? No. He knew what was coming but still was in anguish. In the same way, God knew what was going to happen but His heart was still broken when it did happen. There's no tough thing about it in my mind. :)
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    You beat me to my punch line. :)

    What I think is so amazing is how some take all their energy to PUT down the power of God, and never think there is any way around it.
     
    #18 Jarthur001, Jan 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2011
  19. GBC Pastor

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    I don't know that I can make that connection, but I do think that the fact that God was grieved does indicate that the situation could have gone differently.
     
  20. Jarthur001

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    Ok, being I can't wait all night, I'll get on with it. :)

    Please see the Link

    A sailor may need to change many times the path that his boat is going. This does not mean he is changing his mind. He knows what he is doing. The change in the path is part of the plan FROM THE START.

    :)
     
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