Another question for Catholics...

HP: Are you seriously going to inject some nonsense about choices into a discussion concerning salvatiuon? It is not by the will of man Ann, remember?

Possibly the parents are just acknowledging the predestination of the child to salvation by God, and as such are just agreeing with Him.

 

HP: What in the world are you talking about? Is there no grace of God bestowed on an infant in a Christian home, dedicated and or baptized with a commitment of all those present to pray for and nurture that infant in the ways of the Lord? Are we even on the same planet? Sometimes I wonder.

Would we have to consider an infant born in a heathen hut next door to a witchdoctor in order to see God's grace being poured out via the parents and the church in infant baptism/dedication, whichever it might be? Not by some ritual itself,(although ritual to one extent or another is clearly involved) but by honest hearts invoking God to work in the life of that infant.

Consider the privileges the infant in the Church setting will receive as opposed to some heathen somewhere! If it was not for God's grace being poured out upon me as a child by God via my parents and church, where in the world would I be? Thank God for parents and a church that would dedicate themselves to my godly upbringing! If that is not the grace of God being bestowed upon me, what could possibly be grace?

I can almost see a 'vision' (hello DHK:wavey of angels attending stroking the brow of the infant proclaiming the marvelous grace God He is bestowing and will bestow as a direct consequence of that act of dedication and promise to train that baby up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

It is Gods grace being bestowed upon us simply to be born in a nation that has a heritage of honoring the Lord. Yes, many still do honor the Lord in our great nation.

Another topic could well be the grace God pours out on a marriage that invokes vows to serve the Lord and each other, and yes, we should not overlook God's grace invoked in taking communion either.

While we are on the topic, is not God's grace poured out on us many times simply by the attendance together as believers?

This is amost interesting discussion indeed. :thumbsup:

 

HP: May God grant you light.

 

Then you should be able to discern the issue at hand. :thumbsup:

 

Sounds like New England Theology. Where did you learn it?
You said:
"All men other than Christ have sinned upon coming to the age of accountability."

Can you provide Scriptural support for this statement?
Where do you find "age of accountability" in the Bible? There is no such expression, let alone even the concept. Many of us believe in the concept, but that is only out of our personal theology, not because it is dogmatically taught in Scripture.
As I have already mentioned:
Nowhere in Scripture does it say all infants will go to heaven.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say all infants will go to hell.
Nowhere in Scripture does it tell of an age of accountability.

What the Bible does teach is: All men have sinned; are sinners; and have a sin nature. They have had that sin nature from birth.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

All have sinned; all are sinners. It is appointed unto men (mankind) once to die, and then the judgment. It is Christ that has the keys of hell and death. He appoints that time of death--whether it be for an infant or for an adult. God is sovereign. Those keys are in His hands. It is not up to you to appoint the future destiny to either infants or adults. Their destiny is in the hands of God.

 

From the Scriptures DHK, in the same place you claim you have learned everything you espouse. :thumbsup:

 

And how about the infallible command in RCC Canon law in Lateran IV - commanding that all rulers and authorities under Catholic power "exterminate jews and heretics"??

Another "infallible statement"??

Recall that in the year 2000 Pope John Paul issued an apology that did not even once recant, renounce or reject the Lateran IV call for "extermination". They cannot admit to error in canon law and still make those claims about "infallability" of the magesterium.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. In cases where infant baptism is "in fact" nothing more than "baby dedication" -- the one being baptized is obligated at some point to engage in actual BIBLE Baptism - full water baptism of the believer.

2. In cases where infant baptism "seeks air cover" under the guise "baby dedication" but in fact it is REALLY the same old RCC infant baptism that marks the soul and establishes the Baby as a saved saint -- there is NO requirement in those churches for the person who was baptized as an infant to later enter into actual Bible-based "believers baptism" - for in those churches the Bible has been replaced by the same man-made-tradition that actuated the RCC practice of the same.

That is the not-so-subtle "little hint" that everyone has available to them when trying to sort this out.

Lori is right in this regard. The SAME RCC practice IS being had in non-RCC churches today.

in Christ,

bob

 

Not so. Presbyterian and Reformed churches practice infant baptism regularly, and do not believe that the baptism is regenerative in any way.

 

Lori - you are right. Those various confessions are essentially in lock step agreement with the RCC in that regard.


Parenthetical notes “mine”.

in Christ,

Bob

 

So then those churches "require" that anyone who was baptized as an infant - must later engage in Biblical full water baptism as a believing adult according to the Romans 10 and Acts 2 model? (Or at the very least - be unbiblically "sprinkled" as an adult once they profess Christ as Savior?)

so then those churches do NOT consider that their act of infant baptism has in any way benefitted that infant's soul should the infant die before reaching an age where they can choose Christ?

Do you have a quote for that? Some official document by one of the Presbyterian divisions?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Baptism qualifies the person for membership in the local Christian community. A person who is baptized as an infant must later "confirm" his baptism as an adult.

Christian Baptism and membership in a Christian Church qualify a person to participate in the sacrament of communion.

This is true in the Christian Reformed Church.

 

No. Reformed churches, including PCA, PC-USA, CRC, and RCA, generally don't require a believer's baptism as a prerequisite for church membership. Membership is conferred through affirmation. An adult who has never been baptized will affirm his faith through baptism. An adult who was baptized as a believer prior, or was baptized as an infant, affirms his faith upon becoming a member without being rebaptized (unless s/he wishes to).

 

So Presbyterians use a full water baptismal font - and only accept members into fellowship via full water baptism - of the believer, not counting that infant baptism has any affect at all on the infant?

That is a new one on me - I have to admit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That is what I would have said too before reading Annsni's comment -- maybe some individual Presbyterian congregations choose the Baptist model instead?? Not sure what to make of that.

Thus the infant baptism, sprinkling etc is deemd to REPLACE the biblical method - and is not simply an "added baby dedication" that still leaves the individual neeind actual water baptism whenever they actually decide to be a Christian.

in Christ,

Bob