Another topic about blasphemy

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by susanpet, Aug 29, 2002.

  1. susanpet

    susanpet
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    I asked this in another thread, but since it is in an older thread, I will ask here.
    You know about the debate over tongue-speaking, most believe that it is not for now. And the ones that do practice this violate all the rules Paul stated in 1st. Corinthians.
    Here is what I am concerned about. My husband practices speaking in tongues. I have questioned him on how does he know that it is from God or not. I have told him that satan can produce counterfiets and that many wolves are in sheep's clothing and that satan can appear as an angel of light. He said that I had blasphemed the Holy Ghost by doubting the authenticity of it.
    Now I cannot say that this gift is for now or not. I just am not sure. All I can go on is the absence of the witness of the Holy Spirit when I am around my husband. What I feel is scary and foreboding. Maybe it is just me. Maybe I am prejudice toward oneness pentacostals.
    But do any of you think that I have committed this awful sin, blasphemy of the HG?
    And if I had, wouldn't I be disinterested in anything pertaining to God? And wouldn't I never feel the Spirit again? Wouldn't one know if they had done this?
    I worry that maybe he might be "in the spirit" when speaking in tongues and now I have no hope!
    What do you think?

    Susan
     
  2. Lorelei

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    Blasphemy is not questioning whether or not something is from God. The Bible warns us often of false prophets so that we can be aware they are out there and we are expected and commanded to test the spirits, the doctrines whatever we are being taught to be sure that it is indeed from God. No where does it say that the evidence will have anything to do with tongues.

    Not only are we to test the Spirits, but the Bereans were considered more noble then the Thessalonians. Why is that? Because they didn't just believe Paul, they searched the scriptures to make sure what he said was true! Was it blasphemy to question the Spirit filled Apostle Paul?? No, it was considered noble!

    In the book of Revelation, the Lord praises the church of Ephesus for testing those who claimed to be apostles.

    Questioning and testing things against the word of God is a biblical command, NOT blashpemy!

    Paul was correcting the Corinthians often and he worried about them being deceived because they so easily beleived anything.

    Note, he said that there were indeed false apostles masquerading as apostles of light. Did he say that we could be sure who was and was not false by who spoke in tongues? No, no where in all of his speaking about the gifts of the Spirit does he say that any of them are the evidence we are to look for in anything. On the contrary he said to them:

    These are people he knew spoke in tongues, yet he still tells them to test themselves.

    I can go into great detail about what the Bible says about thier doctrines, and I could point you to many threads that discuss this issue, but the main thing is to realize that you are in no danger of having commited the sin of blasphemy!

    ~Lorelei
     
  3. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    That's some good posting, Lorelei. Very edifying.
     
  4. post-it

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    Although I don't believe the tongues in today's church is anything other than meaningless sounds, I believe that you should not question your husband's belief that he is following "the right path". Nor question if Satan is found in a major Christian movement in which the main difference is an extra language equal in value and evil to baby talk. As long as they aren't sacrificing small children after the tongues and worship segment, you can feel safe that Satan most likely isn’t' there, but rather with these idiot child killers and terrorist groups.

    You also are assuming that you aren't doing what Satan wants by not speaking in tongues. Of course we know that isn't true, but he could say the exact same thing about you. You can point to scripture to support you are right, and he can do the same.

    Each of us must follow what our heart tells us scripture is saying; that is the Holy Spirit talking to us (sometimes). Who are we to "know that the Holy Spirit isn't telling him to speak like a 5 month old? If that is what connects him to God, maybe that is what he needs.

    Be glad he is in Church; that you can work with.
     
  5. Lorelei

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    Mr. Curtis,

    Thank you for your kind words.

    Post-It,

    I believe that the scriptures I listed above would show this statement to be in error.

    It doesn't matter if it appears to be as an angel of light, what matters is what gospel they are teaching and preaching. Paul was very clear, all those who were preaching a different gospel were to be eternally condemned!

    Believe me, it doesn't take child sacrifice to make it a false gospel! The Bible clearly states that we are responsible for knowing the difference!

    ~Lorelei
     
  6. susanpet

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    Post-it said to rest assured that satan isn't present if they don't have child sacrifices after worship. How can you be so sure? If anyone is teaching another Jesus, isn't satan behind it?
    Just because some have a form of Godliness doesn't make it right.
    If that was true, then the JW's and Mormons are OK in their worship.

    Susan
     
  7. hrhema

    hrhema
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    As I have revealed on other posts I was once a Oneness Pentecostal now turned Baptist. Your husband is not even espousing their teaching. THey believe a person has to have the Holy Ghost infilling with the evidence of speaking in tongues before they can blaspheme the Holy Ghost. I was in this movement for over 17 years
    so I do know what I am talking about.

    The reason no one is going to convince me that tongues is of the Devil 100% is because all my life even as a toddler I had a love for God and Jesus. My parents were not believers and my Dad never went to church the entire time he was alive and when I was a child my mom rarely went except for a two year period. I always checked out religious books in the library at school and devoured them. I read the Bible. AT 15 years old I started feeling the need to have a time of prayer. Was not even going to church. Had went once in the past probably 5 years. One evening I knelt down beside a metal folding chair and began to pray. I asked the Lord to come into my life and I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and suddenly it was like someone had poured a bucket of ice water over my head. Then it felt like I had stuck my hand in a electrical socket or plug.
    This strange language started coming out of my mouth. It did frighten me on one hand but thrilled me on another. I had no clue what this was. From then on everytime I would pray this would happen. Finally I told my best friend about this and he told me I needed to talk to his Grandmother. That she was Pentecostal and would tell me what this was. I had never heard the name Pentecostal. They were called Holy Rollers by my family but no one said the word Pentecostal so I had no clue about them.

    There was no one who had told me to do this or try to tell me that I had to speak in tongues.

    I know and have read what people claim that Paul said in I Corinthians but they twist these scriptures to prove their point not Paul's. They refuse to deal with the fact that knowledge is still today. There is not one scripture in the Bible that says tongues is over with. Paul said they will cease with that which is perfect comes.
    Paul was not speaking about the BIBLE. This is just someone lame interpretation to try to make their point.

    I doubt if anyone of them has ever been to a Pentecostal church so they base some of what they say on hear say.

    I don't believe you have to speak in tongues. I believe it is a gift God gives. It has nothing to do with salvation. I know people think they are trying to save people from error or false doctrine but I believe they need to leave things alone.

    God has been supernatural since the beginning of time. He has performed miracles etc. HE is still God but these people make him a lame duck God. All of a sudden in their minds just because the Bible came into existence God no longer has any kind of powers. This is nonsense. He never changes.
     
  8. atestring

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    It is not blaspheme to question if something is from God.
    In Acts 2:5 maskes it clear that when the outpouring of The Holy Spirit took place on the day of Pentecost there were devout men that questioned and said "What meaneth this.'
    It could have been "devout men" that said these are full of "New Wine" ( an expression that pops up in the Book of Joel 5 times and was brought to Peter's remembrance on this occasion." (John 14:26)
    The power of the Holy Spirit can stand the scrutiny of sincere searchers of truth.
    To blaspheme would be to know that something is true and still deny it and ridicule it.
     
  9. Chet

    Chet
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    Lorelei Very good post. You did an excellent job. [​IMG]

    susanpet What Lorelei has already posted I echo. Trust what she has to say, I have read a lot of her writings on this subject, she has a tremendous knowledge and has a lot to offer. ;)

    But I do want to politely offer a couple of other points that may be of help. [​IMG] As Lorelei pointed out, we must look to the bible alone for our answers. And when we study this particular subject we can know that the gift of tongues is something that has indeed ceased. Knowing that God does not give us the gift of tongues today, we then must examine what exactly is taking place in Churches and in peoples lives. Asking, what is going on? Who is causing it?

    1.) They could be being faked
    2.) People may become in an altered state of conscience
    3.) There could be demonic activity
    4.) Or God lied in the Word and is again using the gift of tongues

    There is no blasphemy for questing these things, as Lorelei pointed out so well. Then when we try to discover the answer to these questions it tells us how we are to approach the situation, evangelically or doctrinally. We hope that the person is faking it or is allowing their mind to go into an altered state of conscience. At least then there is a chance they could be a Christian. But if there is demonic activity, which may be the case, then we should try to show them from the Scripture how to be saved. Doctrinally as well, salvation is by faith alone, not by speaking in tongues. So if someone believes that, then there is also something seriously wrong.

    hrhema Please do not base your salvation experience or doctrinal beliefs on your personal experience. This is a problem with a lot of Charismatics. If tongues were something that God had intended to be done on a continual bases, going beyond the finished complete Word of God, then we need to know from His word how to test if tongues are from Him or Satan. We cannot be basing it on what we "felt". It must be something we can check. Of course the Bible does teach that the gift of tongues is ceased, and we can then know from His word that what is happening today is not from Him.

    The gift of knowledge is not for today. But we can have knowledge. We can read God's word and get all the knowledge we desire. But the administering of this gift by the Holy Spirit has ceased. No need for it any longer, because we have something a whole lot better, the completed revelation of God is in the Bible.
     
  10. Lorelei

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    Chet!

    Great to see you! It's funny to hear you mention my knowledge, when I have learned so much from your posts! Your posts are always grounded in the word with an attitude of love. I always feel encouraged to test your words against THE WORD rather then being expected to believe you because YOU spoke it!

    I too hope those listening will not simply believe me, but will test ALL things according the scriptures!

    Atestring,

    Excellent point! I had not thought of that before! Thanks for the insight!

    ~Lorelei
     
  11. Lorelei

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    Hrhema,

    It sounds like even though you left the Pentecostal church, you still espouse the belief that experience equals confirmation of truth. That is not the case. I have shown scriptural evidence that says we are to test the spirits.

    You say you do agree that tongues is a gift, then shouldn't that gift be held according to the commands that Paul laid out for that gift? If it is not used in this manner, wouldn't you then question if it was indeed a gift of the Holy Spirit?

    You assume that I have had no experience with a Pentecostal church and that is where you are wrong. I too used to believe that tongues, though not the evidence, was a gift given today. It wasn't until I actually had an experience with a Pentecostal church and their attempt to fill me with the Spirit I knew I already had that led me to question thier doctrines. Then I began to carefully study what the Bible had to say on the subject. I read Acts and the Corinthians many, many times in full context. After studying what the Bible said about the subject, then and only then did I realize that I have not found anyone today that practices the gift according to the command of the Lord given by Paul.

    If you would like to defend your past experiences could you please show me how it was used according the the instructions Paul gave tongue speakers in 1 Corinthians chapter 14. Otherwise I am not obligated to acknowledge your experience, rather I am to ignore it.

    ~Lorelei
     
  12. post-it

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    I don’t have a problem with tongues in a “special” situation. But lets face it, the way it is use in this movement cannot be from God. Speaking in tongues as used today is equal to flipping a coin and assuming that what ever comes up is God’s hand controlling the result. For us to assume God is making the coin turn to a God decided choice is asking for a miracle. In the same way when a person starts to utter sounds (as in tongues), she is expecting that God will change the muscles, tongue, breath force, starting and ending of a sound, etc. into another language.

    Another person is supposed to then translate these sounds into English. Again, on the side of this prophet, he/she must go through the exact circumstances as the one who spoke in tongues. He must open his mouth, start saying stuff and let God physically change what is said into HIS WORD.

    W not make it easier by having the Church Pastor Ask a question that they really need answers to, then flip a coin? Both prophesy and coin flipping is asking God to give us a message and answer right now. It is expecting and demanding a special miracle, right now, it is a TEST of God. It is a test that says, prove to us we are special, that you exist, that you back our belief, and that we expect it every week. Pull out the Qujia board and demand the same test. What is the difference?

    Now if this were truly happening, one could expect that God is trying to communicate with these people. God must be saying that you are more special than all the other Christians and so I have a special message just for you. PS. Don’t tell them what I said, it our little secret.

    My mom jumped into this type of thing when I was 16, and yes, I spoke in tongues via their brainwashing technique. It isn’t a bad thing, but it was not right for me. My mom remained split between Baptist and Pentecostal, for the remainder of her life she went to each type of church every other Sunday. I dropped the stuff after about a year. It did nothing for me spiritually. I went back to Baptist Church where I felt spiritually balanced. But to think that Satan is behind it is just as bad as saying he could be behind what you believe. This is why we have thousands of different beliefs within the Christian Church today.
     
  13. post-it

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    Susan
    If Satan is that powerful, then most likely he has you fooled about your belief too. What if he created the entire New Testament? After all, there is a very big change at that point. It conflicts so much with the OT, that if it was placed there by Satan, then we all are going to hell. Would God allow Satan to do that? So why are you trying to draw lines within Christian belief when the "intent" is more important than knowledge of truth. God's judgment will be on our heart, not our complete understanding of his word.

    When you understand that, it allows that you could be following some wrong doctrine, beliefs about God and Christ, committing unknown sin, and still make it into heaven as scripture supports.

    [ August 30, 2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  14. Lorelei

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    Post-It,

    You post a lot of opinion and never seem to bother backing up anything you say with scripture. May I ask if what the Bible says has any relevance at all on what you believe?

    ~Lorelei
     
  15. susanpet

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    Jesus Christ is the door to heaven. If anyone tries to get in another way , that person is the same as a thief and a robber.
    A person has only one Father, they cannot straddle the fence. And if a church or person is preaching another gospel or Jesus, we are told to stay away from them and let them be accursed.
    So plainly there are people preaching another Jesus, we are told so in the Bible. And if they are, they are not saved and therefore their father has to be satan.
    Many will say in that day, Lord didn't we do this in your name, (I don't have my bible handy to quote accurately, it is in car) and he will say, depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.
    To me, if a person denies that it takes the blood of Jesus to wash away your sins, that person is in error. If they believe you have to make yourself righteous enough to get saved, they are wrong. We are saved by grace thru faith in Jesus, not of works.Anybody teaching a doctrine that you have to do certain works to get saved is going against scripture. To me, this is an example of teaching another gospel and Christ.

    Susan

    Susan
     
  16. post-it

    post-it
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    Matthew 4:7
    Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

    I just figured everyone knew what I was talking about.

    [ August 30, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  17. Lorelei

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    AMEN!

    ~Lorelei
     
  18. Lorelei

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    That relates to about one sentence in all of your rambling. I still see no scripture that tells us the way to know if something is not from God is to see if they practice child sacrifice.

    You may have spoke briefly as to how some are testing God, but that is not the point in question.

    Testing doctrines, prophecies and spirits is not testing God.

    Though you threw a piece of scripture out there, you still have not answered my question. Do you find the scripture authoritative, or do you consider it merely a guide to fashion one's belief around. I honestly am curious.

    ~Lorelei
     
  19. post-it

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    Who is really responsible here? The leader or the followers (believers). If it is the followers, then we could all fall into this since we interpret and follow other men who interpret what scripture says. How is it our fault that we have a mental weakness that doesn't allow us to see the perfect truth in all scripture? It could be the Mormon, or you that falls for wrong interpretation. They feel as right as you feel and feel they can back it up with scripture... just like you. Your intent is the same as theirs, which is to follow God and do his will according to your understanding. To demand more is impossible.

    This discussion topic always reminds me of the comedy act where St Peter is announcing to everyone as they enter heaven that "So sorry, the Mormons were right, everyone else was wrong, sorry about the confusion, Mormons to the right everyone else to the left. (Mr. Bean did one where the Jews were right, it was so funny)
     
  20. hrhema

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    Lorelei, Chet, and SusanPet, You three are not the only people who can read and understand scriptures. Again you have been challenged to prove the perfect Paul was speaking about is the Bible. No where and I do repeat no where does it say that. You like others who believe this insist on saying that but you cannot prove that. You hope that is what it means but you cannot prove it. I think Paul would have said that tongues would cease upon the arrival of the written word of God but that is not what Paul said.

    I have read what Paul said about tongues and I have read where Paul said he prayed in tongues and he prayed with the interpretation and he sung in tongues and he sang with the interpretation. I have also read where he said the spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.

    The problem is you don't have an understanding between tongues and the Gift of Tongues. These are two separate and distinct manifestations from God. The gift of Tongues is a manifestation of one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit that Paul spoke of. Right along with miracles and Prophesy.
    This is what Pentecostals call Tongues and Interpretation. This is different then the tongues a person manifests when the spirit of God comes within them. Why you ignore the scripture that Paul says he spoke in tongues more than anyone else and he said Forbid not the speaking in tongues and quench not the spirit is beyond me.

    You are never going to convince me to accept your beliefs nor will I convince you three otherwise.
    I believe the 120 in the upper room put a lot of trust in an experience. I think a lot of people have put a lot of trust in experiences such as those Jesus healed. The Israelites after God opened the Red SEa.

    I am sorry but I believe if people who believe this was alive back then they would have said to Moses, Oh come on now God ain't gonna open no sea. I don't think Jesus himself would have been able to be around you because you would have disbelieved any miracles even if you saw them with your own eyes. I am glad I don't serve your God who is obviously powerless today.
     

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