Answer to your questions....

Michelle, I am honestly getting a bit tired of you making accusations based on things I do not say. I simply explained the reason for those two verses...the intention by God and the intention by John---those two verses and their relevance was ALL I was talking about.

Where do you see that I denied anything else in the Bible. I do NOT appreciate you saying I "denied" other scriptures in the Bible by explaining two verses. You are pulling things way out of context and making false assumptions on what I am thinking and how I believe.

 

You are rather judgmental by assuming, "By your belief, you must reject the KJV." Did your holy spirit tell you that? Remember Romans 2 when you try that again.

Romans 2:2, “Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

I am convinced that you do not believe God. You don’t even belieev the KJV. For if you did you would heed what is written in Proverbs, Romans, 1 Cor and 1 Peter. You have rejected the gifts that God gives among the body of believers. You have rejected the part where God lists and explains the function of them in the body. You have rejected the body of Christ and set a standard to yourself. You have made a idol as your standard and the idol is you. You have put yourself in a very dangerous position to set your self as your own standard. You listen to nobody except yourself. You are clearly not open for reproof as Proverbs12:1 says, "Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish." You have rejected Prov. 15:32, “He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.”

Show us your understanding by your attitudes and actions. Show us the evidence of your study and by countering what we have written with facts not an exercise of jargon.


It is quite clear that you have read little or nothing on translation, hermeneutics, or any kind of books that have photostat copies of any manuscripts. You even reject factual information that cannot be disputed. For example when the KJV was translated there was only a small percentage of the manuscripts we have as evidence today. The manuscripts we have today predate those used to translate the KJV by about a millenium. I believe they did the best job they could have done. But more and better evidence helps to make better decisions. How can you write it off so easily? There is only one reason why “He who hates reproof is...”

It simply tells me that you reject even what God says in his word. You have simply rejected all that others are trying to tell you. Why don’t you quit wasting your time arguing and start studying? Why waste your time arguing and instead see if you can invalidate what we have said and prove us wrong. If you can prove me wrong then go for it. You don’t seem to appreciate the fact that the people examining the manuscripts are men and women who were trying to get us an accurate Bible free of once were marginal notes.. You don’t seem to appreciate the fact that what they see is different than what they had seen before. Some of the manuscripts they are now examining were written about 1000 years earlier.

I do not reject the KJV. I just reject the ignorance of those who do not know how translation is done whether it be the Bible or any other document. I have studied five languages and lived in other cultures and know enough to know that you speak from ignorance and not even experience or study.

You have dismissed Bruce Metzger who is a man who has seen the actual manuscripts and examined them along with several others. You do not even know that Bruce Metzger is one of many on a committee. So now how are you prepared to explain what he wrote otherwise? Show us your study and evidence.

How many languages have you studied other than English in MO?

Now again prove to me that 1 John 5:7,8 was not an addition. I have given you evidence otherwise. Have you ever considered the manuscript evidence for the KJV and even looked at the textual variants of the KJV. If not, then you don't even have a clue what you have been led to believe. I do not rely on a translation committee to tell me what to believe. I trust God's word which is written in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. How about you?

FYI, I have lead many Bible studies over the years. One I am leading right now that has people in it who use the NKJV, the KJV, the NASB, the NIV, the Amplified, and the NASU.

So where are your facts to prove your case?

Michelle you had better stop while you still know everything. Because you might have to eat some humble pie if you actually start reading and studying.

 

Your answer is irrelevant because you are failing to answer the question period. Why is it that a KJVo will drop the subject when there is no answer? I think that may "be" your answer.

 

Let me ask you, gb93433:

Have you seen any "doctrinal" differences in the mainstream MV versions and the KJV?

I haven't.

 

AAAAhhhhhhh hmmmmmmmmmm. Michelle, my dear friend in Christ......

Please do not tell me that you don't want to hear anymore about circular reasoning. (Reference: your quote above.)

 

Uh, Excuse me: "This is if you deny every other scripture . . ."

First, I never said anything relating to other scriptures. John was writing about HIS Revelations. PERIOD.

I never said that I did not believe that there were other scriptures that indicate that we are not to add to or take away from God's Word. I was referring specifically to Revelations.

Using the Bible itself (KJV is fine) show me another scripture that refers specifically to Rev. 22:18-19. . .

 

I can't think of any. There are some differences in some parts of the text. But I have seen nothing that leads me to believe that anyone would be misled in any way. However there are differences in translation and word usage because of the intended reader. For example the TEV was written for the audience of a sixth grade reading level who is unchurched. So they didn't use latinisms (words ending in t-i-o-n. I do think some do a better job at translation than others though. I find none to be as close as the original languages. Everyone are translations. There are times when certain words cannot be translated. Such as particles that we do not have in our language and culture. There are idioms that we would not understand so they must be translated differently so we understand them correctly. Every culture has its idioms and what they understand we often don't. When I was in Finland I used a common idiom that everyone in America understands but the person looked at me with a blank look and said, "What?"

The only "bible' that I can think of that is really not a translation but a heretical doctrinal promoter is the NWT. Its method of translation is not even consistent with their own promoted rules of grammar but is totally inconsistent with all other accepted rules of grammar.

 

This is NOT bringing up dirty laundry. Debates are like court cases. You present evidence for you case. Here is my evidence that your post is wrong:

Again, no malice intended, but we all judge, in our own way. What's good for the goose . . .

 

I never questioned your salvation. I questioned your attitude. Would those you hang around with questions someone’s salvation if they disagreed with them? Sounds like that’s what you are used to. I never even thought of that ever once with you. So why would you think of that? Where did that come from? Your church or the people you associate with? Again that reminds me of Romans 2:1.

You have every right in the world to disagree with anyone you want. But you have an attitude of judgment as I pointed out in one of your posts. I even quoted you and referenced Romans 2:1. How can I correct anyone who will not listen? God does even do that. If we will not listen to others whom God is trying to use then He will use another method. “He who hardens his heart after much reproof will be broken beyond remedy.” You need to learn to eat a little humble pie. One of the moderators has tried to tell you something. Several of the other posters have tried to tell you a few things. Yet you have come back with rebuttal when you should have just listened carefully. Even if you thought you were right others felt as though you were wrong.

Yes, I reproved you with scripture. You don't listen and you have not listened again. If you will read back through as number of posts you will find that numerous numbers of people have tried to tell you something. Yet you have come back with the Holy Spirit told me or some other erroneous nonsense without facts. That's not scripture but a subjective appeal. Not long after I posted you came back with your posting. You should take some time and do some reading and try to study the challenges that have ben presented to you Your holy spirit is not the Holy Spirit but your own spirit. Your using the Holy Spirit as a scapegoat for not studying and as an excuse for your ignorance. A wise man has many counselors. Are you that wise that you don’t need to be taught or counseled. Only a unwise person would say that they don’t need the encouragement of others. Only an unwise person would not acknowledge Hebrews 3:13 and 10:24, 25.

Convince me otherwise about the books you have read and studied on the subject of Bible translation, hermeneutics and languages. Convince me of your knowledge by sharing it. Give us the knowledge you have and let us challenge it while you challenge us with your facts of knowledge. Emotional jargon just doesn’t make it. Your pastor might do that and call that okay but people who see through that know different.

I cannot think of a single time you have listened to anyone who has disagreed with you. Your responses have shown a contempt for their position and sometimes them personally. You have not intelligently come back with facts that would prove me or anyone else wrong. This is not totally about debate but about the truth. It is the truth that frees. It’s not about winning but about knowing God better. You have ignored the facts others have given you. You have responded in hostility to the moderator when he snipped some of your posting. I have had that happen to me too. But just move on. Right or wrong it doesn’t matter. That is the moderators choice not yours or mine.

We can disagree as much as we like. But when someone refuses to intelligently discuss the issues it makes little sense to continue on with that kind of person. That’s not dialog and debate

I have not seen a Prov. 27:17 attitude on your part. Talking to you kind of reminds me of the discussions I have had with the Mormon missionaries who have come to my house who just turn on the hose and then when I ask them a few questions they don’t know what to say and leave. They talk with me as though they are just there to turn the hose on and if I don’t accept their presentation they just leave. They are not interested in examining the facts.

I do not need to be open to man, but open to what God has and does say.

Are you so knowledgeable that you don’t ever need a counselor or teacher? If you are then you are denying the giftedness of the body. You are saying that you are above them. You are saying that in effect you are God, when God says clearly that you need the body. You are argumentative and not willing to entertain the possibility that you could be wrong. I would bet that there is not one person who has posted that could not say they haven’t grown over time. But that means at one time we were proven wrong and changed direction as a result.

Your side must also provide facts, and more importantly scriptural facts to your position, which has not been done.”

I’ll throw that back at you. Show me one example from scripture where any writer would support a KJVO posititon as you do, then I will join you. I cannot think of one case where translation was even an issue with any of the writers of scripture.

All along I thought the issue was about KJVO and modern translations.

There are several reasons why the KJVO position is heretical:

1) The fruit of many who hold the KJVO position is divisive.
2) It promotes double inspiration.
3) It denigrates other translations of which there are thousands.
4) It goes against what even the KJV translators believed.
5) It seeks itself and seeks to disrespect those who have sought to get us a sound Bible free of notes that were once in the margin and later in the text. It is a life of gossip. Gossip is tearing someone down whether it be true or not. Too often they build themselves up at the expense of others. They set themselves as the standard while in fact they are really ignorant and don't even know it.

It is plain and simple a life of heresy. Like Billy Graham wrote, “"During this holy but hard time, letters to Ruth were my safety valve. In the intimacy of our partnership in the ministry, as well as our mutual love and respect, I could express myself to her as to few others. I smarted under grievous criticisms from fundamentalists, and I minced no words in telling her how I felt: '" Some of the things they say are pure fabrications....I do not intend to get down to their mud slinging and get into endless arguments and discussions with them....We are too busy winning souls to Christ and helping build the church to go down and argue with these ... publicity seekers.'" "I continued in the same vain: '"If a man accepts the deity of Christ and is living for Christ to the best of his knowledge, I intend to have fellowship with him in Christ. If this extreme type of fundamentalism was of God, it would have brought revival long ago. Instead it has brought dissension, strife, and has produced dead and lifeless churches."' (Just As I Am: The Autobiography of Billy Graham, page 251)

 

None of us a perfect Michelle, and I'm not trying to show you that I am better. I have my faults and errors. I appreciate this post more than you know. It shows me that we are communicating.

Thank you,
Phillip

 

I think all of have been a little on the (what would be a nice easy word here) "rough" side in the last few days. Must be a full moon.

Okay, Michelle has humbled me a lot and she is showing that she is willing to be humble.

Let us all see if we can get a new start.

I don't think anyone on the board actually questions the Christianity of each other; that is between God and each individual.

Let's try to get back and discuss issues on a helpful level for everybody.

I like to ask questions and I like to hold people to an answer that makes sense to me. So, if that appears as a weakness, please realize that I am trying to learn.

I have honestly changed opinion on things before on this board and the only way I can learn and be convinced is to discuss the facts.

Okie, Dokie my fine Christian friends?

 

Michelle:

You may have wondered why I wrote what I did. As I read your posts I felt as though nobody could get through to you with the message that you needed to hear. Personally I felt as though you were not listening. I felt as though you were not hearing what others were posting. I felt as though you were convinced of something that you had no support for other than, that’s the way it is.

You said you were convinced that I did not believe in God or his word.”

I don't recall stating it quite that way. What I do recall is that I mentioned you were not believing God as if to say, where is your faith? Conveying the idea that your trust was in the KJV translators and their interpretation. The KJV is only a translation at best. You may feel as though it is the absolute best translation but it is still a translation. To put my trust in a translation is to trust the translators and their interpretation. Personally as I have studied I am not convinced that every translation always translates a verse the best way. In every translation committee there must be decisions that need to be made on how to phrase something or how to interpret something. I do not always agree with the way some of the translations are done. As I study I see that there is often more behind a Greek or Hebrew word than what any English translation can convey. Some of the problems with translation today lie in the copyright laws. A translation must be far enough apart in wording so as not to infringe upon another copyright. I think it is sad but it is about money and how much some have spent to do a translation. That's just the way our life is today.

After having been in large and small businesses I have seen the range of religious people. Consistently there is a certain kind of group that proclaims Jesus loud and clear while not taking care of their personal business. I will give you an example of one among many I have seen. For the last four years I have watched a man who teaches Sunday School in his church. He has even done some work for those in that congregation while I am hearing of his overcharging customers both from the subcontractors and clients. He even overcharged the church he attends for some work he did. Everyone of the problem people will proclaim that they are believers, but their life does not add up. Oh, they will tell you all the right stuff and then live like they are in charge. That’s what Billy Graham speaks about in the part I quoted. I have seen it first-hand numerous times. I have never seen a problem in the person who disciples others personally.

In counseling I have noticed that consistently it is the same people who do not trust God but say they believe the Bible. A family who lived across the street from me owns a law practice. The man is a family lawyer and told me that consistent ly he sees people from a certain church. It is the same church where the man I once worked for cheats his customers and teaches Sunday School. Billy Graham described them well. I have dealt with some of them in business. I told one of them that I would not do business with him any more because of his business ethics. I also reported it to the leadership in the church. But as I have followed up on him the church has done nothing.
.

I come here not attacking you, nor your salvation, but those things that have taken away from God's words, and cast doubt upon what he has said. I do this out of love and concern for you all.

You must understand that as I have studied knowing that there was text added in the margins of the manuscripts and then later brought into the text itself that I have come to exactly the opposite conclusion that you have. I can only come to one conclusion and that is you have not read about the actual evidence of the manuscripts and what those who examined them saw. Yes the first time I even heard about that it shook me. But as I began to understand what is happening with textual critics I felt as though we are getting a text that it the best text possible that was most likely the original text. Certainly as they discover more manuscripts and examine them they are better able to make wise decisions. The seminary I graduated from challenged some of the committees decisions and the committee made some changes over the years. I see no evidence of any changing message at all.

I am excited just to think that we have the benefit of great men of God who take on challenges to better equip us. Sometime listen to Henry Morris and how he started defending the faith. He grew tired of young people leaving the faith because they didn’t know; they didn’t have reasons for their faith. He began to take a look at what scripture taught and then to investigate the truth of the matter.

I would encourage you to read about the transmission and corruption of the text of the Bible throughout the years and what has been done to change that. But be ready for some things you may not have ever heard before. I think you will gain a great appreciation for the work that has been done. when you get together all the facts then the picture will appear. Read some things you disagree with and then try to refute their position. That will challenge and strengthen you. If you only read those things you already agree with they will do nothing to help you grow and understand differing viewpoints.