Answering 'Breaking News' continued

I know! Isn't it AWLFUL! Isn't it awlful knowing that your parents gave you away to some man so their religion could have more money. I'm sure rape is traumatizing too, so is incest.


I can understand being offended but I don't understand the obsession to keep discussing rape, incest, and pedophillia. We have separate forums for persons with personal issues and then there is also the private message way of sharing information or asking to back off or confidentially make any request.

There is so much more to this story: You trivialize the trauma on young children being remove from their parents. And you trivialize the importance of good investigation and proof required for integrity and good judgement. And you trivialize the rights of parents to peacably raise their children, free from the fear or manipulation and threat of false reports. And you trivialize others who have interest which move beyond your obsession with s*x and abuse.

 

What could have been done differently......if anything? This is a good question:

I would say..... begin from what we know. Joe brings up the point of books and interviews. DonnA and Ann of news reports and papers. So there are out side sources of information and documentation from a personal perspective without fear of alerting the group to the inquiry. If there are inside people or informants... find out what they know regarding this and other like groups. Compare notes.... and flag as a questionably suspect, any information which seems significant but which is also a uniquely reported aborration. Chances are the more commonly reported allegations or significant data will be the easiest to prove, and the less popular traits of this group may be rare, or selectivly known, or underreported as the result of some associated threat or shame.... expect this may be more difficult to uncover and the witness or experience not common knowledge to the group. How will identification of children and spouses in polygamous households be answered: What are the agency's boundaries of investigatory rights: What concession can be withheld and used as bargaining chips to gain cooperation.... and what limits can be set and enforced upon those who refuse to cooperate.

As much as I hate to say this...... I really can't see any way where CPS could investigate without some breaking up of the group. The families were already accustomed to life on the ranch. Would it have been possible to send the men away and leave the mothers and children present on the ranch with the some volunteers from CPS or MH and other social services to temporary living with them or daily visiting and investigating their lifestyle and teachings? Guess there might be constitutional issues regarding occupation and housing? It just seems to me that there should have been some way to keep the mothers and children together...... and some way to develop an honest trust where by the mothers would correctly identify their own children.

I understand DNA was going to be used to establish parentage. Wonder how much longer it will take? Surely some of the matches will confirm or dissuade what so far is only conjecture (out side of the secret and confidential notes of the professional workers).

My personal opinion regarding the recent set back from the court is that...... the state will delay the return of the children to their mothers: the state will make an appeal against the court's findings..... and the state will try harder, both in attempting to uncover evidence supporting the initial action and to produce evidence which will justify the continued separation of the children and break up of this sect.

I think that some of the result may be, eventually, revenue charges against the ranch and its people for tax evasion, welfare fraud, establishing and occupying an institution without state oversight and license and who knows what else?

One value which I mourn: A man used to be king of his castle and sovereign in his own American home. This raid may or may not be justified..... but whether it is or whether it isn't..... the moral code of our own country and society is so broken that it is proving that the constitution, which formed the government to be the preserver of our rights which were deemed to be God given.... is now perhaps an obsolete document to an immoral world. The government it gave us did not make us perfect people.... but it was dependant on people personally motivated by a high degree of morality, to possess their rights with self discipline and restraint. Mercy, we have preachers going to visit and talking smut to 13 y/o with unwraped gift packages of condoms on the seat .... Sadly, even with some abuse which might be proved..... I have a feeling that the people in that ranch or compound actually had more control on the morality in the world they built for themselves than we do in the world we've built for ourselves.

 

Children and adults have the right to justice. Justice requires proof. Proof will be uncovered and the courts and juries will hear it. If that offends you, then so be it. :thumbs: :laugh:

 

Oh, is that you Joe? I meant to say 'Hi! earlier.

OH, BTW, you have a right to your opinion.

I feel so sorry that for many folks on this board; too young to have the experience of a quieter world in which to grow with fewer tvs, fewer radios, just 45 RPM's and I never had nor missed those; The freedom of school with kids from age 5 1/2 to age 19, grades 1 - 12, knowing all the kids, and their families; I never heard one swear word after my dad retired from the navy and we moved from Norfolk/Chesapeak to country life.......not from kids anyway, nor teachers, nor other folks...... and seldom from my dad.....oh he would really have to be flustered! We played hard, worked hard and had a good life. No drugs in school or kids or homes: We could give and get hugs without anyone thinking 'nasty thoughts'. At school, you never dated a guy more than twice unless you both were really really serious....cause you already knew each other.... likes, dislikes, family, values, politics and pets. Every day at school, we had home room: We took turns, kids led devotions: Most would read from the Psalms in the Bible. some might read poetry. We said the "Lord's prayer", pledged allegience and sang the Anthem, The Star Spangled Banner. We played hopscotch, kick ball, soft ball, baseball, football, volley and basketball, and dodge ball on a red clay dirt court. Girls never wore any thing 'sleeveless, or short: Pants were rare exceptions and always worn at 'pedal pusher' length or below. Songs were sappy with sentiment. There were fewer activities. If it didn't happen at the churches in the community, 'it' didn't happen any where.....'cept maybe at school..... fall festival around halloween, Christmas concert, piano concert, and junior and senior plays.... Baptisms in the summer were a great time at the creek, and a few bold enough to get their clothes wet might take a swim afterwards. There was no porn, no stripping, no ads on tv regarding s*x drugs or products. Kids knew where babies came from..... chickens hatched eggs, cows had calves.... which they nursed and also were milked for food..... and dogs and kittens had their kin..... and most kids correctly came to similar understandings about life without a whole lot of complication. Children today can never know the innocence that used to be in this world. From birth to death they are now exposed to drugs, and wars, and diseases, and s*xuality, and values which contrast with those in their homes: God fearing parents are purplexed in their attempt to raise God fearing children in a godless world. Our society used to suppport their efforts and honor the sanctity of the home.....intruding only in extreme instances. People used to believe in their friends, neighbors, and co-workers: A man's word was his bond.... to a bank, a court or a friend. People didn't practice 'optimism...... they were optimistic: They believed in God: they believed in helping and their neighbors help if need arose: they believed in thinking the very best of all they knew and most every one they didn't until proven otherwise. Today every one is suspect and subject to the judgement of others. And sadly, against Cor 13, people take pleasure in pointing fingers: To

So go ahead, Joe, report me if it gives you great pleasure in the LORD. If it would not give you pleasure in the Lord.... then, for your conscience sake, think carefully about that rock in your hand.

 

Oh I wasn't aware that any one had defended them. If you are willing to accept any and every story then so be it. I'm not so easily satisfied.

I want to see proof or hear of charges or evidence before I condemn. Teen age mothers is not evidence: Teenage mothers who report that older men fathered their babies and were not their husbands or whose marriage was force... is evidence. Teenage mothers who admitt they were raped is evidence. In no way does this make these mothers guilty or participants of child abuse. These mothers are the victims. If you really believe crimes have been committed BY THE MEN, why do you persist in punishing the innocent women and children by keeping children away from their mother's?

It is suggestive of manipulation..... i.e. we wont take your children away if you fess up and tell us ......... if you cooperate with us ......... if you tell us what we want........ If you'll confirm what we were told....... if you will identify.....

you might get your children back.

 

These mothers may not be Christians........

But these mothers are human:
They have flesh, blood, and feelings.
It doesn't mean they don't love their children.

These mothers may not be Christians.....
But that doesn't mean they can't be.

 

The Proof? Remember this? ....... Hey, here is the proof you provided:

Read carefully...... what sounds familiar has changed from that which you initially presented or expected me to believe

Hey, don't sweat it..... news happens, assumptions are made and presented by reporters. We believe them ......and even more so if it supports a bias we already have..... which I admit I do.

 

The same reporter compares FLDS at YFZ with Guantanamo, and poignantly states:

----Better said that I could.

However, one thing....

The insistance we place upon these agencies to perform..... when they are in the best position to know their jobs and resources....... the more we insist that they explain themselves and give us answers before they are ready..... We may be making our demands and pressure an additional stumbling block and distraction for them in doing their work.

 

Sad, isn't it?

This still does not make clear how many of these girls conceived before the legal age of consent. And there are no reports of complaints made by any of the women charging they were forced or raped. :tear: