Answering the major objection against Calvinism

Bless you, john. You have such a short memory and a weak theologyy to match it! Of course, God found out before either was born. That's what foreknow means, johnny. How do you think He told Rebecca to tie a red ribbon around Jacob's ankle? He foreknew everything about the boys. Where do you get off presuming that He hated Esau for no reason at all? Is that like "election" -- God elects for no reason at all?

No one is saying that all this "planning" (predestination) didn't happen before creation, john. And no one is saying that God can't "steer" events in spite of men's choices. God even has various options regarding your "No, God." Whatever God's response is, He knows it already and it would be foolish of you not to know what God's options are at tht point.

skypair

 

Hi Joyce,

That's just it, joyce. God created time at a point in time. Ergo, He didn't know about time in eternity before it. If He had, He would co-exist in time and not be it's creator and not be eternal, right?

Calvinists basically take to idea that God created a trainset wherein He was the Motive force behind everything that happens. Basically, such a construct ignores life cause life has existence apart from God that God does not control directly as with trainset "village people."

So how does God get His purposes done assuming beings that you don't control? You control the outcomes. You forsee their choices, you warn them (prophecy), and you choose when to "bring the hammer down."

That's beautiful, joyce! Yes! I like it so much, I'll copy it in my post for those who just go to the "last page!" :jesus: BTW, welcome to BB! :saint:

skypair

 

God does not actively prevent someone from obedience either.

You misunderstand me. I do not hold that God actively causes someone to not hear and obey in the sense you seem to mean.

I would argue that the hardening IS revelation of truth - that nothing is more surely to cause hardening/self-hardening than to present the power and truth of God in unequivocal terms. So, man self-hardens, but God also hardens by making the truth clear to unregenerate man to which man reacts by further self-hardening. What I am saying is that hardening is about man's reacting to truth, not man's reacting to deception or sin. God does not need to obscure the truth or His power to cause man's to reject it - He merely needs to give the truth or power in clear terms to the unregenerate and the unregenerate will create their own self-deceptions and hardening in reaction.

Here are are opposed because of your essentially different view of the nature of man. You say that hardening is a result of the truth being hid - I say hardening is a result of the truth being made evident to the unregenerate.

See, thats the thing. God did. Consider John 12:37-40. Lazarus had been resurrected by Christ. No one tried to deny this fact, the leaders merely thought about killing him in reaction. Then in vs. 37 John mentions that Christ did all these powerful miracles in front of them yet they still refused to believe. So, the hardening of vs 40 could not be seen as a result of God hiding the truth or His power since vs 37 had already established that the truth and power of God had been made perfectly clear to them. No, the hardening of vs. 40 was in spite of the fact that God had made clear to everyone the truth about Christ.

Yes, Christ did hide some aspect of his ministry, but these are not the things which are associated with hardening. Hardening in John 12 is connected with the clear demonstration of God's power and truth. Same in Mark 6:52, and Heb 3:8.

 

Lets be clear about this first - Scripture does not say how God accomplished the hardening. You contend that God obscured the truth to accomplish this, otherwise the display of His power would have been sufficient to cause Pharoah to be convinced. I contend that instead God accomplished the hardening by making the truth so perfectly clear that Pharoah *had* to either submit fully to the truth and power of God, or else resort to further self-deception. Since the former was totally unacceptable to Pharoah, the latter was the inevitable result.

Consider this: You say that God's demostration of power was sufficient to have convinced anyone. Yet why was Israel never convinced even though they saw these same plagues and even more miracles. As Hebrews says, they tested God and saw His power demonstrated for 40 years, yet they still hardened their hearts. Wouldn't this fact tend to argue against your assertion since the people of Israel were, in fact, not convinced of the truth?

 

The Bible agrees with you.

 

The natural reading of this passage would tend to imply that not having an mind to understand, eyes that see or ears that hear is the natural state of man. Would you agree Skandalon? (BTW, love your forum name ) If not, why?

 

God could not have created time at a point in time - there was no time in existence for there to be a point in time at the point at which God created time. Ergo, the structure of your argument falls apart after your first statement. God exists before time and thus outside of time. All 'points in time' would be 'simultaneous' to Him. You can't speak of eternity in terms of time - its not simply infinite time (*can't* be infinite time, otherwise the point at which the world was created would never have 'arrived') but is 'outside' of time.

 

skypair.

I've told you already I reject your definition of 'foreknow' and prefer the theological one that has knocked about for awhile. The very idea that God is not omnipotent was not your only way out you know? The only answer to why God creates men bound for Hell is very simple, He does not love them.

Very gently I suppose why?

I would have thought Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...Esau I hated. Rom 9:11,13 is far from presuming. I did not say God had no reason though. He hated Esau because He wanted to.

I reject your definition of 'predestine' and prefer the theological one that has knocked about for awhile.

God is Sovereign. The Sovereign Lord does not scurry about after men making do where He can but ...works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will... Eph 1:11.

john.

 

Hello dw.

Time and eternity are not opposed to each other. Christianity is becoming like cosmology. What happens if time did not exist? Nothing. Time never started but is part of God's being.

1CH 16:36 Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting. Then all the people said "Amen" and "Praise the LORD."

Everlasting to everlasting has a time element involved.

john.

 

Saying that nothing happened if time did not exists presumes a 4 dimensional perspective is the only valid one. Time merely means that things happen linearaly to the perceiver in time. Set time aside and things can still happen...its just that linear perception becomes limited and pointless.

Does it, or do we just perceive it that way because we can't comprehend 'lasting' without a time element?

 

Hell was never created for man, but for the fallen angels(demons) That is why Jesus came and suffered all that he suffered for us, right? To mgive all man a way out of damnation. John 3:16.........For God so loved the word...God hates no one and proved thatr when he sent Jesus to pay our cost for our origenal sins..We must be born again as the bible says.right?
I do not understand if we all read the same word of God and ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten us and help us to understand what God is saying to us through his word...why the constant nonunderstanding? The unsaved can have no understanding, but everyone here says that they are christians,I think).
God bless you all and I hope to meet you in Heaven some day...raying:

 

I certain can misspell can't I???? sorry about that. I sent that with out reading it first.We can all have a laugh at the new dummy though:BangHead: :laugh:

 

I was closed to him.It was my fault not his. He always loved me and called. I had to decide to listen and except.some people get deaf to God.Can you hear him?

 

Thank you for sharing your view with me without trying to get into a war as in some cases.

 

I agree so far.

So you are the hinge and turning point of your own salvation. Enjoy your portion of the glory, then.

 

Hello dw.

Better to presume than to fantasize. We live in a world with time and we understand that nothing happens without time passing. On the other hand it is just speculation based on a need to give cosmology a good name. They say that time, matter and space came into existence at the same time. What's 'outside of time? I am into science ficton. I have been a keen reader for fifty years. Cosmology is far out man.

It's the only one going. My reality is real yours might not be. The 'everlasting' is defined by Strong as a long time. Amongst other things.

But you speak as if you know it is different to the perceiver outside of time. That's all we know and the rest is speculation but this speculation affects scripture.

You say that but you cannot prove it can you? I'd be dead interested.

Limited? If time stopped the thought you were just having would stop because it takes time for thoughts to travel. It takes time for light. That's what we know. We don't know much else.

I've heard some sermons that were never ending. We see things as they are and that's the way it is. Anything else and I've read it in some sci-fi book or I listened to Richard Dawkins. Your balancing on paradox. Two lots of free will causes no one to have free will. Things happening without time is a contradiction.

john.

 

Did you ever beleive, npetreley?

If so, then enjoy your portion of glory as well.

It doesn't matter if it came from you (faith) or if it came from God to you, YOU must believe and therefore by your own standards must glory in yourself as well.

Either God saved you regardless of if you ever believed in Him or not; or You believed on Him an were saved at that moment. You are the the one actively (not passively) believing, Ergo you took part in your own salvation. For unless YOU believe there is NO salvation.
Kinda sticky huh.

 

Ain't that the truth! Whether I use my own lawnmower, or use my neighbors, I am the one cutting the grass!

 

Not fantasy, but hypothesis based on known fact. We already can demonstrate pretty conclusively that our time perception is a limited one. There are observed phenomena in quatum physics which simply can't be explained from our POV in the universe. Do we have the answers? No. But can we say pretty solidly that our time perception is merely our POV and does not even apply to all POVs in the universe? Absolutely. Einstein's theory of relativity placed the proper POV outside of measurable perception - we have proven that time sense can be affected simply by changing speeds. Quatum physics takes off from there and continues to confirm that our perception of time is not the absolute framework. This isn't fantasy but demonstratable fact.

In short, it can be conclusively demonstrated that what we observe about time is limited and does not apply to even natural phenomena. There is absolutely no reason to believe that time applies to the spiritual realm when it doesn't even apply in ways we understand to the natural realm on the subatomic level.

It may be the only one we can 'grasp', but it is definitely not the 'only one going'. Not even the natural realm conforms to our perception of time at all levels. It would be absurd to expect 'everlasting', which is on a spiritual level, to conform to the restraints of our experience of time.

We can demonstrate that time is not perceived the same even in the natural realm. Why would you expect time to apply to the non-natural reality?

What level of proof are you going to accept? Simply put, we already know that our time perception is a function of our limitations. This is demonstrated mathematically and scientifically. Thus, there is absolutely no reason to expect that events 'happening' are limited to our perception of time.

Why would you limit our thought to the chemical processes of our brain? Can spirit think? How long does it take a spirit to think if it is not limited to physical/energy limitations? You seem to be proposing that the spirit realm is somehow limited by the natural.

That is demonstratably false. Do some reading on quatum physics and relativity. What is observed is largely dependent on what POV the observer is observing from.

 

Fiction dressed up as scholarly. Known fact?

One canot be aware of a change in time.

There is absolutely no reason not to believe that time applies to the spiritual realm. Who says time doesn't apply to part of the natural world?

It's the only one we can grasp because it's the only one we know and everyone has experience of it.

Scripture in error is it? Everlasting means a long time. Jesus said I have everlasting life and He meant me to understand it as such otherwise He would have used another expression. He is the Expression of God. He's not lost for words.

PS 90:2 Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Why is it absurd to believe in the bible? Words have meanings so we can know something. If you do not believe forever means a long time what? The word remains a long time.

How? So that I can understand it?

We are not the natural world God is. We were created in Him. I don't believe evidence built on a lie. It's the lie, the "In the beginning." Since much of the science community oppose God then everything they say is suspect and one needs to make sure for oneself. If one cannot understand then "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth." God's word is final until you can make sure. Much of the scientific community is based on a singular lie.

We do? What's that mean? Do you think time is a limiting factor? I thought time was a liberating one, if that's what you mean, time has no end.

Our perception of time is a thing God catered for in creating the stars after the Earth. He gave us a way to measure it's passing. God perceives time as God perceives it but if I may speculate, God rides the crest of the wave called 'now'. There is no past or future but a never ending now to Him. The past does not exist as a thing but as a memory and the future that He planned is yet to be. Love has to do with the 'now'. How does the perception of time change time but in love it is not perceived but passes as it passes inexorably.

I do not. I said a thought takes time to travel. We can now move things driven by thought. That's cool. That's science not mumbo jumbo.

Yes. Rev 6:9-10.

How do you know there are not limitations in the spirit realm? The saints in Rev 6:9-10 are having a chat about how long they have waited. They were told to wait a bit longer. Why should it be so different from us. The spirits are not omnipresent. They are contained in some way.

And if I did I'm only doing the same as you as you're claiming it isn't limited?

We see things as they are and that's the way it is.

Depends on what you mean. But if I am faced with wall to wall higher mathematics then I have the choice of trusting in man or trusting in God and so does everyone else. I will trust in the beginning until I'm shown it is untrustworthy. If you put your faith in men then you should make sure and that means you must be up to speed. Yet all the cosmologists admit that their theory lacks proof of any sort but the mystery is resolvable.

john.