Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    I would like a Calvinist to walk through this text out of Romans 11 with me and explain how you come to your conclusions.

    We have two groups introduced in verse 7:
    1. The Elect
    2. The Rest who were hardened.

    Questions:
    What does Paul believe about these two groups?
    What will happen to them?
    What does the "Olive Tree" represent?
    What does it mean to be cut off or grafted into that tree?

    7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day . 9 And David says: Let their feasting become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent continually. 11 I ask, then, have they stumbled so as to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring! 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them. 15 For if their being rejected is world reconciliation, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them, and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag-you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you-if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these-the natural branches-be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

    NOTE: I don't want to banter with a bunch of silly comments or personal attacks. PLEASE, lets keep this thread on topic and discuss the actual text and the direct implications of this passage. I will treat you with respect and will expect the same in return, but I'm only interested in discussing this with someone who really wants to discuss scripture in order to really understand the original intent. Thank you.
     
    #1 Skandelon, Feb 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2010
  2. pinoybaptist

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    When will a comment be deemed silly, or words be deemed a personal attack, and by whom, by whose and what standards ?

    Nice to hear that, at least. If you can keep it up when you've gotten this discussion going, and I see that you are treating Calvinists and those of the Doctrine of Grace with respect, and not as reprobates masquerading as Christians, then maybe I will join in without the vampire/van helsing bit, and treat the discussion with respect.



    Which may be a little hard to do (the really understand the original intent) because your side and our side have a different understanding of most of the original intent.
     
  3. Skandelon

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    I don't want this thread to get derailed on the first post, but if you would like to start a new thread about my methods that would be fine. I challenge you to find posts of mine where I ever start the personal attacks, purposefully avoid or derail the topic of the thread, or don't attempt to reply to the question or topic at hand. I respect those who show me respect and I try to be fair with each serious post. When I am not I'd be glad for you to point it out for me. Thanks
     
  4. Skandelon

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    bumping........
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    My, this one is taking quite a time to take off, skan.
    I will pass by the challenge, not because there is none to point to.
    I am sure that with more than 2000 posts you have there should be a few there where by print or by insinuation there will be some disrespect towards those on the opposite side.
    Let's just start fresh.
    I will be respectful for as long as I see that the respect is mutual.
    I do not ask for your love, since we do not know each other.
    Just remember that someone you think is holding on to an incorrect doctrine, or one that is heretical, even, to your estimation is not necessarily a damned soul, just as one who holds to what is of conventional belief is not necessarily a redeemed one, either.

    That said, this is my first and only post for the day.
    It's been a long one, but a blessed one.
    Hope yours was equally blessed.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Good luck. Your past track record Skandelon and your "subtle" blog (hatred for God's sovereignty) are enough to make us just walk on by and pray for you.

    [icon]walking-on-by-shaking-my-head[/icon]
     
  7. BaptistBob

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    Skandelon,

    You are a big meanie. :)
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    Good morning, one and all.
    Good morning, Mr. Skandelon.

    Today, the whole day, I shall be at work, paying off the two days of authorized early departures they gave some employees last week, obviously including me.

    In-between, I shall be looking at my Bible, and studying Romans 11.

    But right off the bat, I feel that one of our problems, skan, will be that your view of Scriptures is that it is God's message to ALL mankind, while mine is that it is God's message to His people and ONLY His people, for their instruction and learning. (Romans 15:4 and preceding verses, and 1 Corinthians 10:10 and 11, and preceding verses).

    So I think it will be like a Protestant and a Roman Catholic discussing doctrine and practices. One is stricly "thus saith Scriptures", the other "and also traditions".

    Catcha later.
     
  9. BaptistBob

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    That's fine. We will be nice to you whether or not you behave like a Roman Catholic.
     
    #9 BaptistBob, Feb 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2010
  10. Skandelon

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    Dr. Bob, can you point to what "track record" to which you are referring? I believe someone bringing a personal accusation should bring specific proof. I am respectful to those who show me respect...and I really do try to avoid ad hominem attacks even when I'm being attacked myself (though, like most here, I've probably slipped a few times on that goal).

    Also, what specifically have I stated that represents hatred of God's Sovereignty? Isn't that begging the question to assume a critique of your views is equal to a "hatred of God's Sovereignty?" And you accuse me of have a "track record" that is somehow unworthy of your response? Interesting...and revealing.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    Ok, I'll put you on the list of Calvinists who have promised me they will eventually get to Romans 11.

    Archangle
    Jarthur
    Pinoybaptist

    (and I responded to the other part of your quote on the other thread that was just started so I won't do that again here)
     
  12. The Archangel

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    That would be "Archangel," thank you. My name is not related to high geometry.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    :laugh: sorry about that...lol
     
  14. OldRegular

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    You might have more success if instead of wading through a chapter, particularly one as difficult as Romans 11, you focused on a particular passage from that chapter.

    In the meantime keep trying to convince yourself that the doctrine of Sovereign Grace is unbiblical. When I consider some of your posts I am reminded of the words of Jesus Christ to Saul on the road to Damascus:

    3. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
    4. And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    5. And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
     
  15. Skandelon

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    I'm sorry you are hijacking this thread by not only discussing the text in the OP. :laugh:
     
  16. canadyjd

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    I don't consider myself a "Calvinist", but I do hold reformed views. I am happy to engage you on these passages.

    To understand Chapter 11, you must understand the context of the preceding chapters.

    The "elect" are introduced in chap. 8:33 "Who will bring a charge against God's elect...."

    These "elect" are identified as those who have the Spirit of God indwelling (v.9-11), who are led by the Spirit (v.14), who are children of God (v.16) and fellow-heirs with Christ (v.17), who cannot be separated from the love of God (v.38-29)

    In chap. 9, Paul discusses the fate of the Jews, assuring us that those who are the "children of promise" are the true descendants of Abraham.

    These "children of promise", IMHO, are referring again to the "elect", and Paul explains why not all of those who call themselves descendants of Abraham are part of that group.

    9 v. 15 "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and compassion on whom I have compassion."

    In chap. 9 v. 24, Paul explains that these "elect", who are called the "children of promise", contain not only Jews, but also Gentiles.

    "even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

    Chap. 10 explains how the righteousness of Christ (salvation) is received by both groups (Jews and Gentile) by faith. Paul also laments the fate of Jews who have rejected Christ.

    In chapter 11, Paul continues speaking of Jews as those who make up the "remnant" (chosen or elect) and those who are hardened. He makes the case that those who are hardened (of the Jews) may yet be saved and grafted back into the "vine", and therefore those who are Gentile Christians should not be arrogant toward all the Jews as if God had abandoned them forever.

    Paul explains that the hardening of the Jews will occur until the "fulness of the Gentiles has come in" (v. 25), at which time, presumably, the hardening may be lifted and Jews may come to salvation in Christ in large numbers (or perhaps every Jew).

    In. v. 26, Paul says "and thus all Israel will be saved..."

    I believe, IMHO, that Paul is referring to true Israel, made up of the "elect" from both Jew and Gentile, when he says "thus all Israel" will be saved.

    The reason I believe this is the "thus" must refer to what he had just said about the "fulness of the Gentiles", so in context, "Israel" must include the Gentiles.

    Enough for now. I await you response.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  17. Skandelon

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    Canadyjd,

    Thanks for your response. Before we go on I want to find out what you think the "vine" represents that the "branches" are being cut off and grafted into? Thanks
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    That's jarthur001

    Thanks..James
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    Paul starts Romans 11 by asking if God has rejected His people. Paul says no, not fully, because there is a believing remnant..AS THERE ALWAYS HAS BEEN. And throughout time...by GRACE the elect obtained salvation...and throughout the rest were hardened

    Who is the vine?

    It depends who you ask, and the way they have come through Romans.

    So, again depending on who you ask, it could be that the vine is:
    1)Israel, as in the nation,
    2)the elect/people of God as a whole(two groups ..wild and natural),
    3)or the church(one group..believers).

    2 is not the same view as 3. If you need help with that let me know.

    Some hold that the vine means
    1)salvation/part of Christ/the new birth.....

    Others say it means the ....
    2) the covenant promise but not salvation

    There is also a New Perspective view
     
  20. kyredneck

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    The olive tree of Ro 11 is synonymous with the vine of Jn 15:

    1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
    2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    It is obvious that it is the body of Christ.
     
    #20 kyredneck, Feb 25, 2010
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