Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

The promises and benefits of salvation is eternal life. So, are you saying the Jews have been cut off from eternal life and thus all who have been cut off or hardened are cut off unto certain condemnation without hope of salvation? If so, how do you explain where Paul says that some of those hardened/cut off Jews might be provoked to envy and saved? And that some of those Jews who were cut off could leave their unbelief and be grafted back in?

 

I understand that, but I'm just trying to understand how God can cut off and graft back in a group generally speaking without specific individuals within that group being cut off and grafted back in?

If I were to make a statement generally about white people such as, "White people can't dance." We both would understand that generally and not specifically, right? But we would know that the support for that general statement comes from the fact that there are many individual white people who don't dance well. So, the general statement of the inability to dance is supported by many specific individuals who are unable to dance.

In the same manner, if Paul speaks of Jews being cut off and grafted back in, then there MUST be some individuals who were cut off and grafted back in, right? If Paul speaks about Gentiles being grafted in and possibly cut off then there must be individuals with the Gentile group who are grafted in who might be cut off, right? Please explain how speaking generally doesn't effect individuals who make up those general groups?

No, if a man dies in unbelief he is condemned. Why do you ask?

 

I'm not claiming that this passage is about personal salvation and perseverance. I actually agree with you that Paul is speaking generally about two groups (Jews and Gentiles), the difference is that I believe what is true of the group, generally speaking, must be true of individuals within that group. How can that not be the case?

Many different scholars on both side of this debate interpret this differently. I agree with those who teach that this is in reference to God's desire to establish the gentiles within his church before the Jews so that the Jews wouldn't try to keep them out (due to bigotry and Judizing demands). Once the Gentiles were established, which I believe Paul thought would be accomplished in his time, then the Jews might be provoked to envy and saved.

As I explained earlier, I don't believe the tree represents salvation. I believe like John Gill that it represents the Gospel Church...or the means by which men are saved. The tree is the means through which the branch received the water and food. Israel was the branch in the tree that was receiving the special revelation of God all these years. They rejected it and were rebellious (generally speaking) and thus they were cut off, meaning they no longer can see and hear God's revelation (food and water) by which they can enter his salvation. The Gentiles are now being granted entrance by hearing the gospel, they are being grafted into the tree and are receiving the water and food of life by which they MIGHT be saved.

 

This is new to me. If I wanted to study it further who would you recommend I read?

 

Uh? I'm just trying to understand how something can be true generally speaking about a group but not true about individuals with that group. That is all. Can you give me an analogy or something where we use general terms about groups of people but it really doesn't apply to any specific individual? I just don't understand how that can be the case.

Anyone else reading this who can help answer this or ask it more clearly, I welcome any input.

14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

So, it is true of the individuals within the group? Ok good.

So, individuals within the Jews have been cut off from the tree, right?
Some individuals who were cut off are grafted back in, right?
Some individuals within the Gentiles have been grafted in who are later cut off, right?

I think you mean that it doesn't support your conclusions if there are actual individuals within the group who are cut off and grafted back in, right?

What point? That God has cut off the Jews and says they can be grafted back in, but no individual Jew was actually cut off and grafted back in?

What point is there if no individuals within the groups are actually experiencing the cutting off and grafting back in?

You said either group in your question.

Its implied in that some of the Jew might be provoked to envy and thus saved. And in that God is showing mercy to all those who have been bound over to sin.

 

Revealing....

 

I know that is what you are saying, but I'm trying to understand how it is possible for the Jews in general to be cut off if there are not individual Jews who are cut off? How can something be true of the whole that is not true of at least some of the parts within that whole?

Can you give me some analogy or situation where this is ever the case?

Actually, I've already explained that is not what I'm attempting to do. I agree the intent of the passage is to address these nations generally speaking, but I've never known a case where something is true of the nation is not true of at least some individuals within that nation.

You seem to think Paul's expectation for some of those Jews who have been cut off to be saved is a far distant future hope, but clearly he thinks his own ministry as an apostles to the Gentiles might provoke the hardened Jews to envy and that because of his ministry some might be saved. That is not some far off distant hope or prophecy of the future. That is statement about what he expects to happen very soon.

 

No, I explained that twice now. I don't believe that the tree represents salvation. I believe it represents God's revelation. Israel was chosen to receive the special revelation of God (via prophets, commandments etc). Now, the special revelation is going to the Gentiles (via the apostle...the gospel).

Israel is being cut off or blinded from the gospel, which means they are cut off from the tree. The tree is the means that a branch gets water and nutrients and for years that was going to Israel, but now it is going to the Gentiles.

So, to be cut off from the special revelation of God doesn't mean you loose your salvation, it means you stop getting his revelations. To be grafted back into the tree means that you can see, hear, and understand God's revealed truth. This truth is the means through which men come to faith.

This is why I have a problem with the idea of thinking of the tree as meaning salvation itself, because it leads to the problem you are having where a group of people (made up of individuals) are being cut off from being saved and grafted back into being saved. That just doesn't work. If, however, the tree is seen as the MEANS through which salvation comes, you don't have that problem.

No he doesn't, but he certainly seems to think there will be some of those hardened Jews who come to faith as a direct result of his ministry.

 

feel better now?