Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

Thank you for the debate. It has run its course.

peace to youraying:

 

Although my theological approach is quite different, I do agree with a lot of your position as well.

I'm still trying to grasp all the nuances of your approach (still reading posts), so you may have already addressed this. Oddly, the Calvinist wants to make the "patience" of 2:4 and 9:22 mean the exact opposite thing. However, Paul's point is that God's judicial hardening is the result of handing them over to their sin for a time, as a plan to save them. The section culminates with the revelation that this action on the part of God was done to bring in the Gentiles, thereby making Israel jealous, resulting in some being saved. In other words, the judicial hardening is over. (By that I do not mean to say that the historical cycle is not repeated.)

30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The repetition of "now" makes the concept emphatic! "Now" the situation has changed! What situation? This situation:

"..so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too might be shown mercy"

The phrase "in order that" is important here. Is Paul saying that the Jews intentionally made themselves disobedient because they wanted to be saved? That seems unlikely. Rather, Paul's intention is to say that God put forth faith in Christ as the basis of which God would show mercy. The Jews stumbled over this concept, just as God had planned. He handed them over to this disobedience (hardening) and let the Gentiles in to make the Jews jealous. The hardening is now over so that the second stage of the plan can be underway. The "now......now...........now..." of this section brings home the concept, leaving no doubt.

For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Hardening is for salvation.

 

On many occasions I have watched those who believe the doctrines of grace quote from various scholars to support their positions.

The response is almost always "That just proves you are following the doctrines of men...not the bible". I tend not to quote other sources for that reason. I am telling you what I believe to be true in the context it was written.

Perhaps you could point me to a main stream "calvinist" that believes what you said...

I have never read anyone holding to reformed theology that believes God doesn't really want the non-elect to come to Him... just the opposite.

or that believe...

I have never read anyone holding to reformed theology that believes people are hardened because they are not elected to salvation. People are hardened because of their rebellion against God.

That is why I said you did rather poorly in articulating reformed theology. Those comments seem more like an arminian version of reformed doctrine.

peace to youraying:

 

Piper believes the non-elect were chosen for hardening, see #7

 

Question? Have you posted anywhere your personal doctrinal statement?

 

Here is the source of John Piper's comments above.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper2/piper2003/2-9-03.htm

 

And your point would be?

 

I do not believe as Calvinism teaches that God unconditionally hardens men. All men who are hardened showed rebellion first.

Look at Pharaoh. First, we see God's foreknowledge.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

This was said before Moses encountered Pharaoh. God already knew that Pharaoh was very proud and obstinate and would not listen to Moses.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Here it does say God will harden Pharaoh's heart. But you cannot dismiss that God had already said he was sure Pharaoh would not let the people go.

Now, it does say many times that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But the scriptures also say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

Now, let me ask you a question. If it was God's will that Pharaoh's heart be hardened, then why does it say Pharaoh sinned yet more? How can you do the will of God and sin at the same time?

So you see, it was not God's will that Pharaoh's heart be hardened, but God knew that Pharaoh would become more and more obstinate.

And this is easily observed by all of us, even on this forum. When one person presents scripture that contradicts another's doctrine, that person becomes offended. They get angry, primarily because of pride, nobody likes to be shown they are wrong. A very few people will humble themselves and admit when they are wrong, but oftentimes a person will become more and more stubborn and obstinate. And if you show them more evidence they are wrong they will grow even more obstinate. I think all of us have experienced this.

The worst fight I ever had with my wife was over the words of a song. She was singing to that old Bob Dylan song, Lay Lady Lay. She sang "you can have your pig and eat it too". Well, I laughed out loud and told her that is not how the song goes, it says, "you can have your cake and eat it too" (and that is how it goes). Well, she became very angry, probably because I laughed at her and insisted she was mistaken. I told her she was wrong and "pig" makes no sense at all.

Believe it or not, she got so angry at me that we barely said a word to each other for two weeks. Yes, a very dumb thing to argue about, but she really got upset when I laughed at her and told her she was wrong. And the more I persisted in telling her she was wrong, the angrier and more obstinate she became.

So, this is how God hardened Pharaoh. Everytime he brought a plague on Pharaoh, Pharoah just got angrier and more stubborn. Even his servants tried to convince him to give in to Moses.

Exo 10:7 And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed?

Pharaoh's servants were not so proud and stubborn as Pharaoh, they begged him to let Moses and the people go, but he would not listen to them or anyone else.

So, God does not harden people without just cause. It is when a person shows persistent rebellion and obstinance to God that he hardens them.

 

Umm...no.

You see, Paul would disagree with you. Paul says that God raised up Pharaoh expressly for the purpose of the destruction that would befall him and Egypt.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

So, it is not "foreknowledge" as you continue to mistakenly understand it. The root of "I know" is the same root that appears in Genesis when God says He "Knew" Abraham, meaning chose. So, it's possible that God chose Pharaoh not to let the people go. Actually, that's exactly what Paul is saying.

So, the divine work of God is clearly in view first, not the work of Pharaoh. God created Pharaoh to be who he was so that God's glory would be shown in wrestling the people away from him.

This is basic theology.

The Archangel

 

Wrong:

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The Archangel

 

It's amazing how something can be right before your eyes, yet you fail to see it.

Does it say God hardened Pharaoh that he might show his power and his name be proclaimed?

No, it says "raised you up". God already knew how incredibly proud and obstinate Pharaoh would be, therefore he raised him up to the powerful position of Pharaoh or king of Egypt that he might demonstrate his power.

You read into Romans 9:17 what it does not say. Read it again.

 

what about the little word "therefore" in the next verse, which joins the thought of verse 17 and 18 ?

therefore is defined in the dictionary as:
–adverb in consequence of that; as a result; consequently: I think; therefore I am.

As you said, God already knew how incredibly proud and obstinate Pharaoh would be, and if He wanted to he can soften his heart as opposed to harden his heart, yet He did not.

More information on the word, therefore:

—Synonyms
hence, whence. Therefore, wherefore, accordingly, consequently, so, then all introduce a statement resulting from, or caused by, what immediately precedes. Therefore (for this or that reason) and wherefore (for which reason) imply exactness of reasoning; they are esp. used in logic, law, mathematics, etc., and in a formal style of speaking or writing. Accordingly (in conformity with the preceding) and consequently (as a result, or sequence, or effect of the preceding), although also somewhat formal, occur mainly in less technical contexts. So (because the preceding is true or this being the case) and then (since the preceding is true) are informal or conversational in tone.


As you can see, Pharaoh is a perfect example of an unregenerate, spiritually dead, totally separated from God sinner, who will remain so, except if the Holy Spirit quickens him.

 

Now, this is good comic relief.

Do you think the Pharaohs of Egypt were elected by vote? Do you think the Pharaohs came to power of their own accord? Hardly.

The Pharaohs came to the throne by family succession. That means that the son usually succeeded the father. So a Pharaoh begat another Pharaoh.

Since this is the case, God would have to place a certain individual into the Pharaohic line to suit His purposes perfectly, which is exactly what happened.

Not to mention, that "raise you up" is a typical Hebrew idiom that refers to God's action.

So, there is no way (except in the bizarre-o Winman-land that you live in) that this is anything other than God acting to bring about His exact purposes--and doing so by actively hardening Pharaoh's heart.

The Archangel

 

Well, I agree God hardened Pharaoh, the scriptures say so, although I understand it differently than you. Anyone who confronted Pharaoh would harden him, he was a super proud and super stubborn man. By continuing to confront Pharaoh God hardened him.

Could God have softened him? I am sure he could have. He could have given him one hour in hell, I believe that would soften anybody up, even Pharaoh.

But Pharaoh had multiple chances to repent and obey God. Some scholars think the plagues took place over about a 6 month period. That is a long time to see incredible miracles and still not repent.

And Pharaoh could not have been said to sin if it was God's will he be hardened. It was God's will he humble himself, the scriptures say so.

Exo 10:3 And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.

God clearly placed the blame on Pharaoh for not humbling himself. Unless you believe God blames others for his own acts.

 

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to say.
Hopefully, that is, lol.
(I just got scolded by a customer for mispronouncing parameters...lol)

And that's what Paul was saying. It's all up to God to choose whom He will harden (by letting his own fallen nature work against himself) or soften (that is, through the work of regeneration wrought by the Spirit and is a perfect illustration of election and the doctrine of grace.
Here in the case of Pharaoh, God left Pharaoh to the natural consequences and choices of a fallen nature. Remember Amalek whom God warned in a dream about Sarai in fact being Abram's wife (I think they were already Sarah and Abraham at that point) ?
That is another illustration of God's selective intervention on behalf of His people.

Which underscores, if you will, the fact that unregenerate men will not come to the mercy seat at all, even if the world turns upside down. Look at the book of Revelation and the bowls and vials of plagues God pours down on the earth. Do men repent ?
They call on their religions and their idols.

God knew Pharaoh will not let his people go. This question is simply to emphasize that truth. Remember that God's people are the Jews. He is fighting for them. Pharaoh is not His own. He may be His creation through Adam, but He is not among God's people.

And so with the rest of humanity. You see, what is obviously hard for you and others to grasp, or refuse to (please, I am not picking a fight here, just saying what I surmise) is that God is absolutely blameless for anyone's going to hell or getting damned because in the transgression of Adam the seed of rebellion (and I may not be saying this correctly) has been part of the natural man and so it takes a regenerate man, one with a second nature added, to fully obey God.

He only regenerates His own, and they all have been judged in Christ who took responsibility for their sins, and that's what I mean when I said in my previous posts that the unredeemed go to hell because they have no redeemer and so they are responsible for their own sins.

 

You didn't address the issue of God holding out His hands to the Jews. Show me Calvin saying God didn't really want these people (non-elect) to come to Him. Show me Calvin saying that God is disingenuous when He calls on the non-elect to come to Him.

That is your accusation. I didn't see that in the commentary you quoted.

peace to youraying: