Any idea

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Robert Snow, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
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    1 Timothy 1:19 (KJV)
    I am interested in any ideas you may have concerning this passage.

    What does this mean, "made shipwreck?"

    Is there any recovery and if so how?

    I understand that there are several pastors and others who have much more biblical knowledge than I have.

    I would love to see your insights. :wavey:
     
  2. kyredneck

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    19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
    20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1

    I would presume if the intent is for these two 'to be taught', there would be the possibility of recovery as was the case of the one in 1 Cor 5:5 who was also turned over to Satan. He was later reinstated back into the Church. Hymenaeus and Alexander blasphemed. I couldn't tell you what that entailed, maybe someone else can..

    Consider this from the next chapter:

    but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety. 1 Tim 2:15

    And also these:

    ......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

    Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

    Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

    but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14
     
    #2 kyredneck, Oct 25, 2011
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  3. Amy.G

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    They were saying that the resurrection had already taken place.

    2 Timothy 2:17-18
    17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
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    Those verses that kyredneck posted are why many believe a person can lose their salvation. I do not agree with this, I believe there is scripture showing we are preserved and kept, but I can understand why many would believe they can lose salvation, their view is based on these scriptures.
     
  5. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
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    Can you shed any light on 1Tim. 1:19?
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Thanks Amy, I'd say that that would probably be the same Hymeneaus, but Alexander and Philetus are most likely two different characters, which also leaves open the possibility that this crime could be different than the one in 1st Timothy.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    How do you reconcile those passages with eternal security?
     
  8. Robert Snow

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    Do you not believe in eternal security?
     
  9. plain_n_simple

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    They had bad consceince due to sin, and started falling from what they were to do, preach the gospel and heal the sick. Preaching the gospel and healing the sick takes faith, which operates out of love, living selfless. Sin operates out of selfish living. Where there is sin, there is mercy, they could repent. So yes they made it back to the path.
     
  10. kyredneck

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    Of course I do. So how do you (or anyone else) reconcile those passages with eternal security?
     
  11. Winman

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    Well, I agree at first glance they would seem to suggest a person could cease to continue in faith and be lost. But I believe there are many verses that show OSAS.

    1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall know him as he is.

    This verse says we are sons of God NOW. I cannot conceive of becoming unborn once we have been born again, it is nonsensical. Jesus compared our spiritual birth to physical birth, and you cannot become "unborn" once you are born.

    1 Jn 5:11 says God "hath given to us eternal life" in the past tense. Vs. 13 says we can KNOW that we have eternal life.

    If a person must persevere, then they cannot KNOW they have eternal life until they die.

    Paul said he is persuaded that God is able to keep that which he has committed unto him, Jesus said he kept the apostles when he prayed in the garden and none were lost except Judas.

    So, I believe there is much scripture to support eternal security.
     
  12. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
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    You posted the verses, I'll let you tell me.
     
  13. Winman

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    double post
     
    #13 Winman, Oct 25, 2011
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  14. Winman

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    Well, this verse does not say Hymenaeus and Alexander were believers, it says they "put away" concerning faith. So, they may not have ever been believers to begin with. Further evidence to support this is vs. 20 says they were guilty of blasphemy, something difficult to believe a true believer would do. We also know from 2 Tim 2:17-18 that Hymenaeus taught the resurrection was already past, which would seem to relate to the prophecies mentioned in 1 Tim 1:18. 2 Tim 2:18 says they erred concerning the truth. Alexander might be the man mentioned in 2 Tim 4:14 who did Paul much harm, this does not sound like a true believer either.

    That is my interpretation, I might be wrong.
     
  15. plain_n_simple

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    1 Corinthians 15
    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.



    Only so many options here. The word "if" presents a choice. I can keep the gospel in my memory, or I can not keep it in my memory. If I keep the Gospel in my memory, the verse says I'm saved. Jesus said repent and "believe" the Gospel
    Believe is an ongoing mindset.
    If I stop believing then I am an "unbeliever".
    Am I still saved if I do not keep it in my memory and stop believing?
    Jesus said unbelievers are not gonna make it.
     
  16. Robert Snow

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    Do you believe a person can believe and be a Christian; turn away and be lost; turn back and then be saved again; back and forth, back and forth.

    If so, can they be saved once, twice, three times... a thousand times?
     
  17. plain_n_simple

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    I don't know, I'm just simplifying the verses I guess, trying to hash this out. I don't believe God will ever give up on His end of it. I ask myself this: If I think that OSAS is false, it makes me ever eager and earnest in my race because I might lose it if I stopped believing, makes me see the importance of keeping the death, burial, and resurrection in my memory. If OSAS is true, it means I can stop believing and still go to heaven because I believed at one time, but not anymore. If I no longer believe on Him, I will cease to know Him. Will He then know me at the judgement? That word "saved" comes from "Sozo" and has more present tense meanings than just the word "saved". It's percieved as a one time belief by most.
     
    #17 plain_n_simple, Oct 25, 2011
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  18. righteousdude2

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    Shipwreck is Similar to Backslidding!

    I may be off base, but, it has always been my understanding that the terminology "having gone shipwreck!" is synonymous to "backslidding."

    I prefer to refer to backslidding as having gone shipwreck, or going "prodigal!"

    I do believe in eternal security. And I believe this because the Scripture clearly says that when we are saved, are name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelations 21:27).

    If your name is written in that book when you're saved, there are a few factors you must hold unto through "faith!" and the first is that I believe our names have been written not in ink, or pencil, but in His shed blood.

    Secondly, if our name's are written in the LBOL, faith would tell us that God does not have an eraser, liquid paper, or white out.

    Third, and just as important as the other two point I've already made is what Paul says in Galatians 4:4-6, and Ephesians 1:4-6 that we are legally "adopted" into the Family of God. We have "son ship"" confirmed upon us, and because the act of adoption is a legal process, it is impossible to undo what he has done through the legal process of adopting us into His family!

    Finally, in John 10:27-30, Jesus tells us, "The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One." the Amplified Bible

    The fact that your name has been recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life; and the fact that salvation is compared to the legal act of "adoption"; and the fact that we are safe and secure in His hand give me the fullest confidence that I am saved and secure forever.

    I know that there will be times where we will stumble, slip, fall, go to shipwreck, and cash in and go prodigal. However, I know from Scripture, that Jesus will leave the herd [the 99] to seek and find the lost sheep, confirms that even though we may stray [because we are human], He will find us and bring us back as well as accept us when we return to the fold!

    That is a long explanation regarding the terminology: Shipwreck! But, that is my view and understanding of the term being discussed. :thumbs:
     
  19. kyredneck

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    It's a wrong assumption to imply that a 'true believer' could never do these things. The fact is, the redeemed, born from above child of God is capable of doing everything they're told not to do in The Book. I believe that 1 Jn 2:19 is often misapplied as a blanket explanation for all those who 'fall away', or fail to 'continue', or fail to 'hold fast', or backslide. Consider these passages:

    Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3:12

    4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
    6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
    29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. Heb 10
     
  20. kyredneck

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    The short answer is that I don't assign eternal consequences to any of those passages, including those in post #19.
     

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