Anybody who would like to discuss the 'Investigative Judgement' intelligently?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 23, 2005.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    I am investigating the SDA's dogma of an 'investigative judgement'. If anyone but Bob Ryan is prepared to discourse, I would be gratefull.
    Any person willing to enter into discussion may get an impression of how my dispute with Bob Ryan came to an end, from the thread 'A Seventh Day Adventist question'. Let's get on from there.
     
  2. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 5 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    John 5 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Acts 10 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

    Acts 17 31 Because he hath appointed a day,in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Jesus Christ was chosen by God the Father to judge the world. This He is doing now. Every soul born into this world will make a decision about their relationship to the Son of God. Will we honor Him or not? This is the judgment of the world. It is going on now, and will do so until God Himself decides it is finished.

    First comes the trial, then the verdict, then the execution of the verdict. This life is our trial. We will choose to honor the Son of God, or not to honor Him. The Holy Spirit is sent to every soul to convict them to accept, and honor the Son of God. They will either accept the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or reject Him. This is the judgment of this world. It is going on right now. Satan is our accuser, and Christ is our advocate. Christ “ever liveth to make intercession for us”. This entire ministry is taking place in the sanctuary in heaven, on behalf of all humanity, right now. It is intricately connected to the body of Christ here on earth, that are to be cooperating with Christ in spreading the knowledge of God to the world through His Son Jesus Christ. Which body, is also the temple, or sanctuary of God. That is to say, a place of mediation between humanity, that is sinners, and God.


    Matthew 16 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Jesus will reward every man according to his works, when He returns. This is because their cases have already been decided.


    Revelation 22 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    The time is coming in which every persons case will be decided. It will be to late to change. This is when Christ will return. This is when He brings His reward with Him.
    The judgment in heaven that the saints will attend, is not the judgment that determines ones eternal destiny. This has already been decided before Christ returns. That is why the saints are already in heaven with Christ, they have received their reward, eternal life.

    Matthew 25 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    Again, the separation will take place at Christ’s return. This can be done then, because all cases have been decided. This is why the dead in Christ will be raised at His appearing, and caught up together with those who are alive in the air together, to ever be with the Lord.

    II Timothy 4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    More of the same.

    II Timothy 4 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Our eternal destination has already been decided when Christ returns. This is when the saved begin eternal life with God. The judgment in heaven during the thousand years is not about who is, or is not going to be in heaven, for those who are going to be there are already their with God judging the world. That is, they are seeing why those who are not there, are not there. At the end of this thousand years, every knee shall bow before God and confess that He is true and righteous in all His dealings with humanity. Even the wicked who will be resurrected at the end of the thousand years will bow the knee and confess, before their destruction.


    Philippians 2 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    Romans 14 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.


    One of the last messages to the world from the three angels of the book of Revelation is to fear God and give Him glory, for the hour of His judgment has come. This is before Christ’s return.

    6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Anyone "but BobRyan"???

    How about listening to scripture?

    (Keith is giving the long version - above)

    In Daniel 7 we see "The books opened" (i.e. investigation out of the things written in the books).

    In Danile 7 was see "Judgment passed IN FAVOR of the saints" -

    So that is "investigative judgement".

    And in Daniel 7 we see that this takes place AFTER the rise of the 4th beast in the sequence of world empires. It happens after that 4th beast splits into 10 kingdoms.

    It does not get any simpler.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    Those through faith in Christ - the saved - are judged already: "in Him".
    They are judged upon the atonement attained made by Christ; by the peace He has obtained.

    One should distinguish between the (last day-) judgement, and reconciliation through Christ - between judgement and atonement.

    If one received atonement through and in Christ, he shall not enter into ANY other judgement - judgement for him has already been undergone - "in Him". He shall go - in fact had gone - out and from death, into everlasting life -now, "in Him"!

    That is what I'm looking for: Where, how, and when, did Jesus Christ obtain THIS, perfect salvation for the believer? Because that, IS, his judgement ultimately.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Again GE you are simply pontificating you are not exegeting Daniel 7:21-22 to SHOW that "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints does NOT involve the saints IN JUDGMENT at all" -- you "say it" you "assume it" you "ponitificate it" in response to the Dan 7:21-22 text but then you do nothing WITH the text ITSELF!!

    In Daniel 7 the persecuting power that begins in the time of the 4th beast (all admit to being the Roman empire) CONTINUES to persecute the saints UNTIL the judgment takes place. EVEN in the 20th century we see MORE SAINTS killed than in any other century in all of history!!

    There is no question that the persecution of the saints CONTINUES - how can you simply ignore the text as you do??

    How sad.

    In 2Cor 5 "WE MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" -- you don't deal with that -- you simply "assume" these texts are wrong by virtue of pontification alone.

    Why not deal with the texts themselves -- instead?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    I hoped it wouldn't be you on this thread, but here we are at each other's thoat again!

    I above have not answer you, but what's his name kamaroso?
    So, BR, quote, "Again GE you are simply pontificating you are not exegeting Daniel 7:21-22 to SHOW that "Judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints does NOT involve the saints IN JUDGMENT at all" -- you "say it" you "assume it" you "ponitificate it" in response to the Dan 7:21-22 text but then you do nothing WITH the text ITSELF!!"

    No reply - lets the two of us slug it out on the other thread. You will see I have made one step nearer the 'judgement / atonement' issue there.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The point in Daniel 7 is clear - though unnanswered in your post "it remains still".

    I suppose you could find a way to blame me for the existence of Daniel 7 and if that is the course you prefer here - then fine.

    I am simply saying that it does exist.

    I am also pointing out that 2 Cor 5:7-11 addresses the same point of Judgment that includes the saints.

    Of course I suppose you might find a way to blame the existence of that text on me as well - and if so - fine.

    I could also point out that Romans 2:11-16 goes through the same point of Gospel Judgment future as does Rev 14:6-8.

    I suppose there is some way to complain about that and blame it all on me instead of actually looking at the texts.

    I leave that to you.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

Share This Page

Loading...