Aparently...

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by SendMe, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. SendMe

    SendMe
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    Aparently I have stated before in another thread that I both believe and do not believe in unlimited atonement... I meant to say that I do not believe in limited atonement, in that I believe that when Christ died on the cross, He died for all men. (and women too, of course.)

    Matthew
     
  2. whetstone

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    There were unsaved people in hell before the cross. Did Christ die for them? If so, why?
     
  3. Wes Outwest

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    YES! Jesus died for them too!

    How do you know that even one person is in Hell? Have you been there? Can you see beyond the veil! Do you know what happens to people when they die from this natural life?

    The answer to those questions is NO! So why can't you accept that Jesus' Atonement for sin, covers ALL sin in ALL times? He died so that we might have life EVERLASTING by His removal of the death penalty from us!

    Those who have preceded us in passing from this life are not dead! They are awaiting the Judgment! It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgement! For those who had faith in God when they died, Jesus' atonement for sin gives them safe passage from death into life everlasting. Those who lacked faith in God, scriptures say that Jesus decended into hades and preached the Gospel, the same Gospel that you and I have received. Those who accepted it to them HE gave life.

    Yes, Jesus' Atonement covers ALL SIN in ALL times! NO LIMITATIONS!
     
  4. Brutus

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    Wes

    We certainly do know for sure that there is at least one person in hell! Or are you one of those that maintains that the account of the rich man in Luke 16 is a parable?

    So you contend that Jesus died for all men the same way? Can you then, explain just what it is that the death of Jesus really, actually accomplished for everybody? Especially what it accomplished for those who refuse to believe and go to hell?


    Brutus
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    It is a story, and that is all we can say it is, because we have no way of proving it or disproving it. Its purpose in scripture is to illustrate the truth that if family members do not listen to the current messenger, why would they listen to someone who returns from the dead? Jesus says it this way,
    No, I do not contend that Jesus died for all men the same way!

    I contend that Jesus died to atone for sin so that man can have everlasting life by believing in Jesus! (John 3:16,36; 4;42; 5:24,42,44,46; 6:29,35,40,47,67-71; 7:39; 11:25,26)

    The atonement removed the penalty of sin from ALL mankind because, as it was in the OLD TESTAMENT, it is SIN that was atoned, and not man.

    Therefore, no man has any advantage whatever in receiving God's free gift of Salvation, because Salvation is through FAITH alone!

    Every human has an equal ability with all other humans to have faith in God and thereby have everlasting life.
     
  6. whetstone

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    You limit the power of the atonement while I limit the amount of people it is applied to. One is a bridge incredibly wide that doesn't go all the way across, while another is a bridge that is very narrow but reaches the other side.

    You must limit the atonement in one way or the other. In my way the atonement saves who it was intended for, in your way it fails to cover many it was intended for. Who here is doing an injustice to the cross?

    "I do not believe in an atonement which is admirably wide, but fatally ineffectual." -Spurgeon
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    How am I limiting the power of the atonement when I say that the atonement is for ALL sin in ALL Times? That is an ALL-inclusive-leaving-nothing-out statement.

    While your statement is limiting God's atonement to a very very narrow group of people that you have no way of identifying. You cannot possibly know who is included in your version of atonement because you cannot identify them. You wouldn't be able to recognize one if standing nose to nose, toes to toes with him.

    I can recognize every person that is effected by Atonement for sin, all they have to do is look human, and I know without doubt that the atonement covers their sin!

    You say that atonement saves! Prove it! Tell me who has been saved by atonement! (you'd better be able to prove it)

    Scriptures say that Jesus died so that THEY might have life. Who is the they? Whosoever believeth in him, shall have life (John 3:16,36; 4;42; 5:24,42,44,46; 6:29,35,40,47,67-71; 7:39; 11:25,26) Go read these scripture IN THEIR CONTEXT, and UNDERSTAND that the words are those of the one who did the ATONEMENT FOR SIN!

    YOU say,
    You Whetstone, are the one doing GREAT HARM to the cross because you are telling people that God cannot possibly save those for whom His beloved Son's atonement does not apply without having a clue who they may be. The truth is that Whoever believes has eternal life because of the power of the Atonement to remove the death penalty for sin. YOU are ANTI-CHRIST because you have been given the truth but refuse to accept it and out of your mind comes much untruth....Repent!

    Who gives a care what spurgeon said! HE's WRONG about the Christ's atonement FOR SIN!
     
  8. whetstone

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    Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

    You are limiting it's power by saying that it is worthless to some of the people it is applied to. You are saying that the blood of Christ is utterly worthless and doesn't actually save anyone.

    This seems to bother you. Why does it matter if we can identify who Christ has atoned for? "What is that to thee?"

    Again. What difference does this make? You just offer emotional arguments. I have no use for these.

    Then I guess they won't have to pay for it will they?

    It is rather scary that you would challenge the Biblical evidence that atonement saves. I don't think even your Arminian brethren would make such carelessly emotional statements. Proof that atonement (blood sacrifice) saves:

    #1- I tell you here as a witness that Christ atoned for my sins- and has saved me by such atonement.

    #2- Romans 5:11 speaks of our atonement and uses the word 'katallage.' It is used elsewhere as 'reconciliation.' In the standard Greek lexicon found at blueletterbible (link) it means:

    1) exchange

    a) of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values

    2) adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour

    a) in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ


    Atonement by definition is the exchange that occurs when God places sin on Christ. You are telling me that this exchange has happened for every person. That all men are reconciled to God. Why will God punish those whom He has been reconciled to?

    No disagreement here. You have contradicted yourself though. You said Christ died so that THEY might have life- then defined that group as those that believe. You have just (unknowingly) argued for a limited atonement.

    I agree. And that makes them all the more beautiful.

    Your red face and teary eyes are effecting your sentence structure. I don't tell anyone that God cannot save them. I am not called to make such presumptions. I am called to preach Christ crucified and allow God to work in their hearts.

    I agree with this. But you apparently can't make up your mind one way or the other. Here you are again arguing for limited atonement. Which do you believe?

    If Spurgeon was wrong, he was wrong in a much kinder and Christ-like fashion than you have been.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    Whetstone,
    I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE ATONEMENT IS WORTHLESS TO SOME! YOU SAY THAT!
    I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE ATONEMENT IS APPLIED TO PEOPLE! YOU SAY THAT!
    I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST IS UTTERLY WORTHLESS AND DOESN'T ACTUALLY SAVE ANYONE! WHAT I SAID IS THAT THE ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WAS SPILLED IN PAYMENT FOR THE PENALTY OF SIN UNDER WHICH ALL MANKIND HAS BEEN FROM ADAM TO JESUS. JESUS' DEATH ON THE CROSS, REMOVED THAT DEATH PENALTY SO THAT ALL MANKIND THROUGH FAITH CAN BE SAVED AND HAVE LIFE EVERLASTING. BEFORE THE ATONEMENT NO MAN COULD HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE (BE SAVED) BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED, AND ALL WERE CONDEMNED TO DIE! BUT, JESUS' PAID THE PENALTY OF SIN WITH HIS OWN DIVINE LIFE SO THAT MAN COULD HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE BY NOT HAVING TO DIE FOR SINNING!

    whetstone, Why do you insist in lying as you do! Do you not know that liars will never enter heaven? Yes, the sin of lying is atoned, meaning you will not die for lying, but if you do not repent of your lying, you remain a liar and every lie you tell is the same as spitting in Jesus' face, and he is not "required" to allow you into HIS home which is Heaven, and scriptures say that He won't allow you in if you are not repentant.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    whetstone said,
    That's the whole story. Because Jesus atoned for sin, Man does not die for sin! Do you believe that?
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    I did not tell you that ALL men are reconciled to God! That is your story!

    I tell you that God placed all sin on His beloved Son and accepted HIS son's life in exchange for the lives of all mankind all of whom are sinners.

    Therefore, Man does not die because of sin! The only reason any man dies is because that man does not believe! Then I listed a number of scriptures to which you stated agreement! Those scriptures are Jesus telling man to believe! Those who do not believe, God punishes with the second death, that of being cast into the lake of fire!
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    No Contradiction in what I said, and no unknowing argument for limited atonement, whetstone. It is your failure to understand the words of Jesus that causes you to err.

    I was quoting Jesus who said
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    Your red face and teary eyes are effecting your sentence structure. I don't tell anyone that God cannot save them. I am not called to make such presumptions. I am called to preach Christ crucified and allow God to work in their hearts.</font>[/QUOTE]You are saying that the atonement for sin does not apply to many, and that they cannot be saved unless god changes them first, and that God is only going to change "the elect".

    If that is not doing great Harm to the cross, nothing can.
    I agree with this. But you apparently can't make up your mind one way or the other. Here you are again arguing for limited atonement. Which do you believe?</font>[/QUOTE]Again, No argument for limited atonement. You continually fail to understand that Atonement is for Sin, Sin blocked the sinner from having everlasting life, With sin atoned, there remains no blockage between man and eternal life. No limit one who can have eternal life, and nothing to keep man from believing and thereby having eternal life.

    Shall we take a poll of the bbs and see who between you and I, has the most consistent statements regarding the atonement? I have NOT deviated in my stance regarding the Atonement, nor will I ever do so.
     
  14. whetstone

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    Hey Wes. You flamed me for an entire paragraph. Flaming (all caps) is the digital form of yelling. Why are you yelling? If you're right, your calm words of truth should ring true at any tone. Could it be you must make up for error with gusto?

    And why accuse me of lying? I would like you to produce evidence a) that I have lied to you in my responses and b) how your position is strengthened by calling my character into question.

    I suppose we'll go another round. Perhaps God will use me to reach you. I pray that He does.

    yet earlier: "Yes, Jesus' Atonement covers ALL SIN in ALL times! NO LIMITATIONS!"

    If Jesus sin covers all sin of all time, and people will go to hell for their sins, Christ's atonement of those sins was worthless. You implicitly stated that Christ's atonement is worthless for some.

    Yet earlier: "He died so that we might have life EVERLASTING by His removal of the death penalty from us!"

    Which is it?

    And in the next sentence: "WHAT I SAID IS THAT THE ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE."

    The blood of Christ IS the atonement. Did the blood save anyone or didn't it?

    Hollow accusations. You are grasping at straws in your theology and must attack me personally.

    In their unregenerate state, correct.

    Yours sounds like the continual works salvation of the Catholics. Thank the Lord my lies are under the blood and I'm saved.

    No. Romans 6:23 says that death comes about because of sin. This was written after Christ died.

    Atonement means reconciliation or exchange. You said all men are atoned for. Therefore you said all men are reconciled to God.

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


    You are in direct opposition to scripture by your statement.

    Let's take a look at what you said: "Scriptures say that Jesus died so that THEY might have life. Who is the they? Whosoever believeth in him, shall have life."

    Sounds to me like an argument for limited atonement. Any Calvinists out there agree with me? [​IMG]
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Just trying to WAKE UP THE DEAD!
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    yet earlier: "Yes, Jesus' Atonement covers ALL SIN in ALL times! NO LIMITATIONS!"</font>[/QUOTE]If Jesus sin covers all sin of all time, and people will go to hell for their sins, Christ's atonement of those sins was worthless. You implicitly stated that Christ's atonement is worthless for some.</font>[/QUOTE]NOT SO whetstone, You fail to understand the Atonement.
    Scripture says that Jesus atonement is for sin. Whetstone says atonement is for people.

    Atonement for sin, All sin in All times is not atonement for people, and is therefore not limited by people.

    I said that people do not die for their sins. They die because they do not believe! Whetstone says people die for their sins, and that simply negates the atonement for sin! So who is limiting the Atonement? it is the person who tells you that people die for their sins.

    You are the one who is saying that the Christ's atonement of those sins is worthless, NOT I!
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    I accuse you of lying because you lie. You say that I say something that I have not ever said! That is a lie! You said it, therefore you are a liar.

    God does not use liars to reach others! So Mr. Wanna B. Evangelist, I recommend that you do a lot of introspection before you set foot on my door jam again!
     
  18. whetstone

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    Pro 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

    Our conversation is over.
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    This is what I mean about Calvinist only seeing what they want to in scripture;
    You don't even read what you quote, then you try and say Wes said something different. You limit the atonement to who can have it when it is for the whole world. Hell is not the world. However while Christ was in the tomb there were some in Hell who Christ set free from the captivity of death. There is a requirement for the atonement it's called belief. Belief is a requirement for the atonement not a limitation.
    May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    Iluvlight said,
    Mike, There is no such requirement for the atonement! The atonement is a finished work of God, man need not be concerned with atonement whatever. Man doesn't really need to know that it happened, except to know that it was done for you and me so that we might have life everlasting.

    What is required for Salvation is Belief in the Atoner. The atonement made it possible for man who believes in the atoner to have everlasting life.

    FAITH is the real issue!
     

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