Apologetix?

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by gekko, Sep 17, 2005.

  1. gekko

    gekko
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    oh, hello friends!

    so my life is basically based around God, of course, but a main part of that is music! I love music!

    a band i've come across lately is Apologetix. Which is a christian band performing christian parodies to popular hit songs such as:

    -Look Yourself (Lose Yourself by Eminem)
    -Psum 41 (Fat Lip by Sum 41)
    -Lazy Brain (Crazy Train by Ozzy Osbourne)
    -JC's Mom (Stacy's Mom by Fountains of Wayne)
    -Back Intact (Back in Black by AC/DC)
    -Hotel Can't Afford Ya(Hotel California by the Eagles)
    -Baa! We're Lambs (Barbara Ann by the Beach Boys and the Regents)
    -Bethlehemian Rhapsody (Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen)
    -The Real Sin Savior (The Real Slim Shady by Eminem)
    -Jail Got Rocked (Jailhouse Rock by Elvis Presley)
    -Enter Samson (Enter Sandman by Metallica)
    -Narrow Way to Heaven (Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin)
    -Pray Now (Lost Art) (All Star by Smash Mouth)


    These are just some of this group's songs... i am asking for an opinion of your's... please do not put this music down, do not say it is from the devil... it is not, i've read the lyrics for the majority of these songs... i believe that there are different cultures that listen to different music genre's... therefore, i.e., christian hip-hop, (once cross movement has their why-hip-hop webpage running, please check it out, i have the cd, and the stuff on there is very profound, and glorifying to the Lord) those people who live and grow-up or are accustomed to hearing the sound of hip-hop, or rap, or anything of that sort, need to be reached and get a talkin' to 'bout the Gospel of Jesus Christ... how else are you gon' do that but by reaching them through their way of culture? the same goes for heavy metal... bands like demon hunter, underoath, zao, emery... they reach out to those people who listen to heavy rock... then there's the softer rock, and some emo type, such as cool hand luke, david crowder band etc... also for the punk style listeners... there's Hawk Nelson, Relient K, MXPX and the sort...

    what i'm sayin' is... there are a whole whack of ways to reach the world and spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ... Music is one way... if we were tryin' to reach out to the heavy metal groupies with some christian emo, it just wouldnt work...

    i've read some other articles that are on this forum... i've been reading things like:

    christian rap/hip-hop is an oxy-moron
    christian rock is an oxymoron
    christian heavy metal/screamo/thrash is an oxymoron...

    come-on people... grow up for the sake of pete(please don't ask who pete is...) they are NOT oxymorons, i am utterly sicken'd when people say that... because there are christian bands that are classified as rap, hip-hop, rock, heavy metal and so on... what else would you classify the style of music as? christian? christian is not a genre of music. these christian bands are there for a purpose. To Serve God... and if you think that on the surface it doesn't sound or look like they are for God... then contact the heck out of them and bombard them with questions, asking them about their faith... don't right away assume that if it is christian hip-hop then it's not glorifying to Jesus... groups like Ambassador, cross movement, da' T.R.U.T.H, phanatik, L.A. syphony, grits, flynn adams, john reuben... all them people... i know for a fact that they glorify the Lord, and that's all they are here for... read their lyrics, listen to their songs... ask the Holy Spirit to lead and help you discern the righteous from the unrighteous...

    please... give them a chance... don't put them down by saying it's crap, or baloney... i know you're allowed to express your opinions, and i'm not stopping you from that, but if you don't like listenin' to a particular style, say that you don't like it and explain why, don't just say it sucks... them's harsh words... God's masterpiece don't suck.

    i'm asking what your opinion is on the band Apologetix... sorry for rambling on like this... music is a big thing in my life, sure has lifted me up, towards the Lord some more, of course Jesus is the center of it all... and He lifts up all...

    i think that's it for me right now... i'll just let this flow for a bit, then i'll come back and write more...

    signin' out.

    have a great one will ya?!?!
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    This is exactly what Paul condemns in 2 Cor 4:1-6 where he talks about dishonesty in the work of the gospel. The music they are parodying is shameful music that should be hidden. It fits what Paul talks about in Ephesians 5 where he says we should not even discuss certain things. It glorifies the false and sinful philosophies of the world, and is a wholly inappropriate vehicle for the gospel of the glory of God. Christians should renounce such tactics and depend on the biblical gospel, plainly manifested to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

    2 Corinthians 4:1-6 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
     
  3. Brother Ian

    Brother Ian
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    Music is neither good or bad. It is amoral. There is no value in itself.

    Some people don't like Southern Gospel music (I don't) but that doesn't make it bad.

    Apologetix has been doing paradies for years. Just becasue they use electric guitars and synthesizers does not make it bad. There are many bands out there today that use all manner of instruments. That does not make the music bad. Again, music cannot be bad. . . or good. They will reach a lot of folks that I am not able to reach.

    A person that used to work for me on the submarine slept just on the other side of my office. I played Christian music of all types whenever I was in my office. He said he would fall aslpeep listening to my music. After he surrendered to Christ, he latyer told me that the music I played had a tremendous impact on him in his decision to follow Christ. It was not the music, but the words that accompanied the music that made a difference.

    Music cannot change a person's life, only the word of God can do that.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    If you read what I said, you will notice that I didn't say anything about the morality of music or the use of certain instruments. So often, in discussions like these, people come in with their hackles up and never actually look to see what is said. You assumed I said something. I didn't.

    I commented on parodies of the works of darkness to preach the gospel of light. That is what Paul calls "adulterating" the message. It should not be done. God deserves better than that.

    On the points you brought up, it is universally recognized that music is moral. The only people who deny it are those who have a hand in CCM. Where we draw the line of morality is a mixture of art, culture, background, and intent. But it is absurd to say that music has no meaning whatsoever. To say that it has no value in itself makes me wonder why restaurants choose the music they do. Surely they think certain types of music has value. It makes me wonder why parents play soft lullabies, rather than the Stones to put their infants to sleep at night. Surely that is concrete evidence that music has meaning and value in itself. There is far too much everyday evidence that music has value to say that it doesn't. Everyone certainly doesn't need to have my standards. There are people here to the right and left of me. But we should not stoop to absurdity in order to argue for a position.

    It is interesting that your last statement reads, "Music cannot change a person's life, only the word of God can do that." That's an excellent statement. It makes me wonder why you also said, "They will reach a lot of folks that I am not able to reach." Why? Will you not open your mouth to give them the word of God? It is contradictory to claim that "only the Word can change lives" and then say that certain music will reach people that words cannot.

    In the end, regardless of what one thinks about where the line of music should be drawn, we should be able to agree that parodies of wickedness have no place in the communication of the glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't imagine that is even debatable.
     
  5. gekko

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    so... say if there was this random person that loved to listen to music... but the music this person listen'd to was parodies... and nothing else... this person is not a christian in any way shape or form... and also refuses to listen to anything other than parodies.... how are you to reach this person? by tellin' him the straight up Gospel? it will work in God's time, with much prayer yes... i believe also that to help with witnessing to this person, in aid of tellin' him the straight up Gospel, (having other sources of christianity)... there are christian parodies of the songs and music that this person listen's to... not parodies of parodies... but parodies of songs that the secular parodist writes...

    i hope you follow what i'm sayin'...

    i fully believe in givin' this person the straight up Gospel... that's what we're here for... Apologetix is there to aid in the lives of those who listen to that genre of music...

    God Bless.

    gekko.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Yes, according to Romans 1:16, the gospel is hte power of God unto salvation, not parodies. I know exactly what you are saying. Here's the point: Why would you steal from the world to send the message of God? Remember, I am not even at this point talking about the music itself, though there is something to be said about that. I am talking about parodies ... using the music about darkness to preach the gospel of light. Should not our God deserve better than that from us?

    I happen to like parodies. I think there are some hilarious ones. But they have no place in the preaching of the gospel.

    If you believe in "givin' this person the straight up Gospel," then why would you use parodies? THat isn't the straight up gospel.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Pastor Larry,

    Amen!

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Do you doubt that the Gospel is able to reach the lost? If so, I think that is very sad and yet another reflection of how the Church has slipped further into utilizing the wisdom of carnal man instead of preaching the Word.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. gekko

    gekko
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    thank you very much.

    what i was doing here was playing the "other side," i fully believe in what you have posted.

    God will soften the hearts of people in His time... and the straight up Gospel will aid in bringing that particular person closer to God, and eventually to be saved... just like cornelius in the book of acts.... he was not saved until Jesus was revealed to Him...

    we need to bring Jesus to the people, but not having anything to do with the world.... In not Of. (great song by cross movement)

    God Bless.

    gekko.
     
  10. jshurley04

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    It's funny, those who bash music do so based on the misconception that music is moral. Music is not moral, music is amoral. It is the words that make a difference. Some people bash what they do not prefer personally, it is human nature. The problem is that they never bother to listen to the words.

    If we are to reach people, we are to use the tools that God has given. Music provides an avenue to gain a hearing. If a person will not hear then the Word will fall on hard ground. We confuse our doctrine with meathodology so much, I wonder how anyone ever comes to Christ.

    Keep listening to the words, if the words are consistant with scripture, then use it and run with it. If they are not, then dump it and get rid of it.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    What's funny is that no one actually believes this, except for those who defend CCM. As I said above, To say that it has no value in itself makes me wonder why restaurants choose the music they do. Surely they think certain types of music has value. It makes me wonder why parents play soft lullabies, rather than the Stones to put their infants to sleep at night. Surely that is concrete evidence that music has meaning and value in itself. There is far too much everyday evidence that music has value to say that it doesn't. Everyone certainly doesn't need to have my standards. There are people here to the right and left of me. But we should not stoop to absurdity in order to argue for a position.

    Music communicates without words precisely because music is moral. Why does Sousa and Brahms have two totally different affects on a listener? Because music is moral. Why don't the Rolling Stones write music like Mozart? Because it doesn't fit their message. Which is fine for them. I have no problem with the Stones doing what they do. But let's not stoop to the nonsense that music is amoral.

    Yes, some people do. I happen to like a wide variety of music, across the musical spectrum.

    Sometimes you can't understand them, and sometimes they don't fit the music.

     
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero
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    GEKKO

    Do you want my opinion? Or are you asking me to lie to you?
     
  13. jshurley04

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    [/qb]What's funny is that no one actually believes this, except for those who defend CCM. As I said above, To say that it has no value in itself makes me wonder why restaurants choose the music they do. Surely they think certain types of music has value. It makes me wonder why parents play soft lullabies, rather than the Stones to put their infants to sleep at night. Surely that is concrete evidence that music has meaning and value in itself. There is far too much everyday evidence that music has value to say that it doesn't. Everyone certainly doesn't need to have my standards. There are people here to the right and left of me. But we should not stoop to absurdity in order to argue for a position. </font>[/QUOTE]

    Why do they choose the music they do? because they think that the music choice is what the customers will enjoy, NOT because they a making any kind of moral statement. The reason musical choices are made is because of situational preferance and not because of some moral misconception about the music.


    Music communicates without words precisely because music is moral. Why does Sousa and Brahms have two totally different affects on a listener? Because music is moral. Why don't the Rolling Stones write music like Mozart? Because it doesn't fit their message. Which is fine for them. I have no problem with the Stones doing what they do. But let's not stoop to the nonsense that music is amoral.


    OK, what does music communicate without words? It may stir the emotions or bring back memories, but that is certainly not a moral statement. If Mozart or Bach were alive in the 60's or 70's they just might have written for the Stones. They wrote what they did, when they did because it was contemporary to them to do so. Just as the tune to so many of the "old hymns of the faith" are based on contemporary music of the time. Much of it was bar music/tunes.


    Yes, some people do. I happen to like a wide variety of music, across the musical spectrum.

    Sometimes you can't understand them, and sometimes they don't fit the music. [/quote]


    Unless you are speaking of the grunge element, I have not heard a song that the words cannot be understood. I personally keep a broad taste in music from classical to country to Southern Gospel to contemporary to classic rock to pop rock. However, I have not been able to get into the grunge music in either realm.


    Why doesn't this argument work against you? It does. If you speak the word of truth to someone and they will not hear, then they will not get saved. People don't get saved because of music. They get saved because of the gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]

    I never said that the music will win them to Christ, BUT it will "grease the skids" as it were. It will open the door to the preaching of the Word and allow the Word to be heard.
    It's funny, but I have been to concerts in which people have been saved without the preaching as we understand it. Music has a huge impact upon people and when the gopel is presented through music, people will receive it. When scriptural principle is presented in music, it helps to reinforce the teaching of the Word.
     
  14. jshurley04

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    I hope that you can understand what I was trying to say. I am still learning some of the ways to quote and post. I'll keep trying.
     
  15. tenor

    tenor
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    Pastor Larry,

    Did not Paul use the seech and arguments techniques of the Greeks in their language? Therefore did he not parody the of "works of darkness" since he used the same language and logic of the pagan Greek philosophers?

    As to your examples of "morality of music," the vast majority of these are culturally conditioned. BTW, I am neutral on CCM and not abig fan. Most of the gospel songs and many of the hymns of the mid - late 19th century are in the popular music style of the day. As is the music of JW Peterson and Gaither. I also don't personally like these styles of Southern Gospel.
     
  16. gekko

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    1 Corinthians 6:4-10:

    4) But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
    5) In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
    6) By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
    7) By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
    8) By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
    9) As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
    10) As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    That's not what they say.

    It can communicate a lot of things ... sensuality, sexuality, anger, tension, soothing, calming. If you are familiar with music than you know a minor chord is associated with communication very clearly. That is evidence of hte morality of music. It communicates.

    Serious misunderstanding here. "Contemporary" in music is a statement of genre, not of time. As well, to say that many of the old hymns are "bar tunes" is simply inaccurate as well. Secondly, eve if it were true, it would be irrelevant.

    I hear it all the time. You are not listening very broadly if you haven't heard it. I routinely flip stations when I am driving. I have a wide taste in music. But there are many songs where the isntrumentals overpower the words, or where the singer is just plain bad and doesn't enunciate clearly.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Exactly the opposite. 1 Cor 1-2 and 2 Cor 2-4 are explicit statements by Paul that he would not use the techniques, the sophistry, of the day. He did not want the gospel presented in those terms, so that the power would be of God and not of man. Paul repudiated the philosophy that undergirds much of CCM.

    Some are, some are not. But even if they are culturally conditioned, they still communicate, and therefore it is problemmatic.

    This is true. Much of that is bad music and weak theology as well. As in CCM, there is some good and some bad. Where precisely the line is drawn is a matter of some debate. But to deny that there is any line at all cannot be substantiated.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    What is the point of quoting this? Paul was saying that some people looked on them as deceivers, but they weren't. They were true. It has nothing to do with this.
     
  20. tenor

    tenor
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    I fully agree with you here. I never said there was no line. Since there is good and bad in all musical styles, why are there blanket arguments against a particular style? Is is also not true that the local church context is important in the choosing of musical stlye?

    Thanks Pastor Larry,
    Tim
     

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