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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Sep 12, 2003.
Are there any apostles and prophets today?
Depends who you ask!
I know of One, for sure. His name is Jesus.
HEB 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
I also know that Jesus has a plan for the Body of Christ to come to maturity and unity, and His plan doesn't work without apostles, prophets, and others who are gifted by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
EPH 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
How can Jesus be the chief Apostle if there are no apostles? He cannot! Jesus Christ the good shepherd reproduces after His kind and that includes apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors and evangelists to edify the body of Christ till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting!
An apostle was simply a learner/follower (disciple) who became a sent one to take the Gospel all over the world. Christ sent them.
So is Christ still sending them today? Folks with the gifting of His Spirit to be "apostles" would be called missionaries today.
No Apostles or Prophets today, but many false ones!!!
Holy Rollers, Mormons, and other cults claim they have Apostles & Prophets though.
EPHESIANS 2:19 “ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” Are we to build a new foundation with new apostles and new prophets (or God forbid, a new Christ)? Or does the church you belong to need a new foundation? Please notice that before we reach Ephesians 4:11-13 Paul set the apostles and prophets in a class by themselves “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;” Paul brackets off the apostles and prophets in Ephesians 2:20 and so should you. Tell this to Charismaniacs and they will have hissy-fit. Those spoken of in Eph.4:11 are to be viewed with Eph. 2:20 in mind like it or not, the foundation was put down (past tense) with Apostles and Prophets.
Lets see if our Holy Roller self-appointed apostles (and others) meet the requirements for genuine apostles.
Eyewitness to Christ after his Resurrection:
In Act 2:22: “Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” I CORINTHIANS 9:1 “AM I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?” I CORINTHIANS 15:7 “After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.” LAST OF ALL HE WAS SEEN OF PAUL.
If the Holy Roller self-appointed apostles are real ask yourself this, why do we not see the same things (healing, miracles and so forth) today as they had back in the days of the Apostles? I mean Holy Roller Apostles claim these gifts and these signs should follow them!!!
Acts 3:1 “NOW Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. 2 And a certain man lame from his
mother.s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;”
His legs no doubt had withered having been lame from birth. Holy Rollers do not deal with these kinds of people they are put in the back, way…. in the back. You never seem them in front or on the stage.
3 “Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. 4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. 5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.”
Was the guy expecting healing, NO he was expecting money!!! Charismaniacs make much to do about people not having enough faith, because they do not get heal. So what did this guy believe? That he was going to get some money. But the Charismaniacs will say: Yes but Jesus told people their faith had heal them.
MATTHEW 9:22 “But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.” Yes this woman put her faith in right place, in the one who could make people whole. Not in some false Holy Roller apostle!!! PUT YOUR FAITH IN THE RIGHT PLACE TOO, IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
6 “Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:”
Now notice the guy did not get up on his own, he did not cry out OH GLORY I FEEL IT I FEEL IT…… No Peter picked him up. Nobody clapped, nobody filled out a card, no crazy loud music… Peter and John true Apostles walked up to a guy who was looking for money and heal him. Lets see the false Holy Roller apostles heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers.
Can Holy Rollers pull on a chain of Apostles from today all the way back to the first Apostles? No they cannot do it. How about some Great men of God in the past like Spurgeon, Bunyan, Gill, Keach, Kiffin, Fuller, Carey…. any of these lay claim to be Apostles? No.
Ephesians 4:11. “And he gave some apostles, &c.] That is, he gave them gifts by which they were qualified to be apostles; who were such as were
immediately called by Christ, and had their doctrine from him, and their commission to preach it; and were peculiarly and infallibly guided by the Spirit of God, and had a power to work miracles for the confirmation of their doctrine; and had authority to go everywhere and preach the Gospel, and plant churches, and were not confined to anyone particular place or church; this was the first and chief office in the church, and of an extraordinary kind, and is now ceased; and though the apostles were before Christ's ascension, yet they had not received till then the fulness of the Spirit, and his extraordinary gifts to fit them for their office; nor did they
enter upon the discharge of it in its large extent till that time;”
Again: “ chief office in the church, and of an extraordinary kind, and is now ceased;”
If the chain is broken of Apostles so is this Holy Roller self-appointed apostle doctrine.
Some do say that the offices are being restored (the so called Latter Rain Movement), But nowhere in the Bible does it say that new Apostles and new Prophets are to come in the last days. It does say: I TIMOTHY 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;” II CORINTHIANS 11:13 “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” REVELATION 2:2 “I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”
Also why in Jude 1:17 “But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;” Why remember the words of the apostles and not just listen to your pet Apostles or Prophets?
Your friend Omega
Dr. Bob I was hoping for more (and what about prophets for today?). I thought Dr. Bob will straighten these Charismatic clowns out, oh well maybe I’m wrong on this but I do not think so. True in a broad sense the term Apostle can be seen as a sent one or as a missionary and yes “Christ sent them”. But in a strict sense I see it limited to a few men in the past too. Today there is a five-fold ministry movement and they claim a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. I’ve bumped into a person (a Holy Roller) who’s church follows after teachings of the heretic Dr. C. Peter Wagner a former 30 year professor of Fuller Theological Seminary. His is the Charismatic “New Apostolic Reformation” movement; this Holy Roller is OUT there WAY OUT there. This Holy Roller person I’ve bumped into has told me that his preacher is an Apostle for the greater Detroit area !?!?! Well he is not my Apostle, and I asked him how he got to be an Apostle? He said he did not know (I guess the Lord told him he was one). But from what I have read of this cult they got Vertical Apostles, Horizontal Apostles, Hyphenated Apostles and Prophets ect… From what I have read Dr. C. Peter Wagner claims to be a Horizontal Apostle. But that aside, do you ever call your missionaries Apostles? It is true we could call you a Bishop, a Bible thing called by a Bible name but are you so called by that name (Bishop)?
Your friend Omega
Again we come to the issue of Cessationism, Being as that I believe that it is scriptural to use Spiritual Gifts then yes Prophecy is a gift given to different church members.
Dr Bob is right with the modern term for an Apostle is a Missionary, of which there are millions in the church.
Yes there have been false prophets in the church, yet the Bible predicts this. There have also been people that have prophesied accuratley. Dave Wilkerson, Steve Lightle and Baslea Schlink are all good examples.
Steve Lightle prophesied to the Kremlin prior to it happening that the Soviet Union would be broken up, and it was as a result of the refusal to allow the Jews to return to Israel. And sure enough the Hammer and Sickle lie broken on the ground.
For all of you who said that there were no apostles and prophets today...you are forced to take a Preterist interpretation of Revelation since no present-day entity (the great whore, the beast, etc.) would be capable of killing the apostles and prophets.
Primitive Baptist, That is an interesting point.
The biblical usage of each word is:
Apostle - sent ones
Prophets - those who proclaim God's word
As far as the gifts go, some are gifted with apostleship (missionary), some are gifted with preacher-like skills.
I can't be preterist, I am saved.
Gunther, a premiller.
Are you implying one cannot be saved and also be a Preterist? Would that mean one cannot believe the words of the Son of God (Matthew 10:23) and be saved?
It's always amazing to me that some people choose to be primitive which the dictionary defines as:
prim·i·tive (pr¹m“¹-t¹v) adj. Abbr. prim. 1. Not derived from something else; primary or basic. 2.a. Of or relating to an earliest or original stage or state; primeval. b. Being little evolved from an early ancestral type. 3. Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated. prim·i·tive (pr¹m“¹-t¹v) adj.
I guess you cannot teach an old dog new tricks?
Consider the duties of the Apostle & Prophet.
Apostles were sent ones. That is they were comissioned by God to go into the world and take the gospel, making sure that it was preached in truth and discipling new believers to carry on the same task within the Church.
Today, Missionaries do that same job. The role of Apostle, a role of authority as they were chosen by Christ, fell away (to stop anyone from claiming they are of great importance trying to usurp authority from Christ), and this duty fell to the missionaries.
Prophets warned of God's judgment and preached his Word to the people. Today, Evangelists do that duty. God let the role of prophet fall away so no man could falsly lead the flocks away with a great title.
The work of the prophet and apostle are still there but the authority and command of the titles are gone.
Today's Church follows only one leadership, the leading of Christ directly. This leading is usually directed through a Pastor (a shepherd under the Great Shepherd). Note that Pastors are not authority or leaders either, but are shepherds (guides). They do not feed the flock but lead the flock to the substance & source.
(note most people today claiming to be prophets and apostles are very prideful and feel that their word is law and you are a sinner if you do not follow them, at least 95% of the ones I met. They seek self recognition, something the true prophets and apostles did not seek).
Why has the offices of Apostles and Prophets ceased?
Do we still believe we can do the duties of the apostle and the prophet without having the label of being called one?
Why is the church of Jesus Christ impotent, anemic and almost useless? Because it has rejected Apostles and prophets and the gifts of the Spirit!
The Spirit still gives gifts. I don't think apostles are prophets have been done away with. I do believe their ministry was modified a little.
The "church" at large is worse off due to the foolishness of the charismaniacs more than anything else.
Unfortunatley there are a number of churches that actually forbid their members to use their Spiritual Gifts in case it "Offends" anyone.