Apostles and Prophets

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by drfuss, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. drfuss

    drfuss
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    Eph. 2:19,20
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    Yesterday in Bible Study, the lesson book indicated that the prophets referred to in the above scripture were New Testament Prophets. If so, who were these New Testament Prophets? They were not the apostles, because they are listed in addition to the apostles.

    I think the prophets referred to are the Old Testament prophets.

    Am I missing something?
     
  2. lastday

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    drfuss,

    I agree with you that the "Prophets" here refer to the OT Prophets!
    The Saints, "both small and great" automatically include NT Prophets!!
    OT Prophets are among the dead who rise up with NT Saints on the Lastday!!!

    The NT Prophets are part of the "foundation" of the New Building!
    Jesus Christ is the "foundation" of the Body of Christ, the Church!!
    The New Building of Eph.2 looks beyond to the New Jerusalem above!!!
    Mel
     
  3. SolaSaint

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    Agreed, Ive always been taught this verse refers to Old Testament prophets. Does the church you attend promote present day prophets, in the likeness of Old Testament prophets?
     
  4. drfuss

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    I attend a Southern Baptist Church and the lesson books are the standard SBC lessons from Lifeway. As far as I know, the SBC does not support present day prophets.

    There are a number of SBC Christians on here who can check their lesson books. I would like to know if many SBC Christians believe this.
     
  5. Jerome

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    Acts 13:1
    Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

    Acts 15:22,32
    Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
    . . . .
    And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
     
  6. drfuss

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    Granted, there were New Testament prophets. The lesson book is written as to exclude Old Testament prophets from this passage. Do you think Old Testament prophets are not included in this passage?
     
  7. Amy.G

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    Ephesians 2:19-20 Now therefore you are no more strangers and sojourners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;


    I think there is no doubt this refers to OT prophets. The OT speaks of the "cornerstone" which is prophecy of Christ.

    The foundation did not begin with the NT church, but began with Abraham, Israel (being the light of the world), the prophets, Christ, as the chief cornerstone upon which all else is laid, then the apostles .
     
  8. lastday

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    Lastday

    Amy,
    You Write:
    Your statement reveals that you indeed have given much time in "study".
    If the foundation of the New Building began with OT Saints and Prophets,
    then it is still "growing unto the Holy Temple in the Lord" and, as such, is
    inclusive of all those who are and will become members of the Lamb's Bride.

    There will be "no temple" in New Jerusalem because God and the Lamb are its Temple. The 12 foundations symbolized by the Apostles and 12 gates by the
    12 Tribes of Israel further establishes your point about the beginning of
    God's Plan with Israel.
    Mel
     
  9. Jerome

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    FWIW, I just checked three books (Hodge, Chafer, Macarthur); all agreed with the Sunday School lesson book.
     
  10. Salty

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    I just took a "spiritual gift" test. My highest score was prophecy.

    Here is their definitions of prophecy:

    You are very discerning; one who points out sin with the goal of making Christians aware of sin in their lives so they will repent. A prophet in full-time Christian service is usually a "hell-fire, brimstone preacher." You have the Spirit-given capacity and desire to serve God by proclaiming His truth.


    To take this test go to this BB thread
     
    #10 Salty, Sep 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2010
  11. dwmoeller1

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    Ugh. Looks like someone has been influenced too much by Gothard :)
     
  12. kyredneck

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    Apostles in proximity with prophets are mentioned three times in Ephesians and I must conclude that the two were contemporary:

    being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; Eph 2:20

    which in other generation was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; Eph 3:5

    And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: Eph 4:11, 12

    See also:

    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 1 Cor 12:28-30

    Remembering this also:

    .......but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. 1 Cor 13:8
     
  13. RAdam

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    Very good.
     
  14. dwmoeller1

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    Using this passage to conclude that these gifts no longer exist is fallacious. Notice the full context:
    8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    Love never fails. Prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will cease however. When? When the perfection comes. What does perfection refer to? Contextually it refers to the time when one "shall know fully, even as they are fully known".

    So, unless one claims that believers have reached the point where they know as fully as they are known (personally I don't see this happening till the resurrection), then "perfection" has not come, and thus it would be fallacious to conclude that prophecies, tongues and knowledge have ceased. If anything, this verse implies that those gifts will exist till the Second Coming.

    Thats not to say they haven't, merely that using this passage to argue such is unsound.
     
  15. lastday

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    Lastday

    Friends,

    Paul's reference to the Apostles and Prophets of the NT era does not
    exclude OT Prophets as part of the "foundation" of the New Building!
    His reference to Christ as the "foundation of the Church does not exclude the Son of Man as the Cornerstone of the Commonwealth of Israel which was made up of OT Prophets and Saints!! We must be careful to maintain the unity of the Sons of God that includes OT Saints as well as the 144,000 Jews of the 1260-Day Endtime who
    are rescued from earth, from among men and taken to
    heaven as the "Firstfruit unto both God and the Lamb"!!!
    Mel
     
  16. RAdam

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    Actually, Paul is speaking about things the church had in its infancy. When the church grew up, so to speak, those things were put away. They didn't have what we have today: the complete word of God. In light of this, they had other things to help them along in their infancy. I know people like to refer to the end point of that text as the second coming, but I think the better application is the maturity of the church.
     
  17. kyredneck

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    I'm a wee bit confused. Are you saying that there has or has not been a cessation of prophecies, tongues and knowledge? And what passage would you use to explain the apparent cessation of these things? When is the last time that you have observed an event such as this?:

    While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Acts 10:44-46

    I fail to see how you justify inserting the 'Second Coming' into this passage. I like the Amplified Bible on this:

    8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
    9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
    10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
    11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
    12 For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [[h]by God]. 1 Cor 13

    ......and I agree with Brother Adam:

     
    #17 kyredneck, Sep 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2010
  18. kyredneck

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    Apostles and prophets. Agabus was an example of both:

    And as we tarried there some days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And coming to us, and taking Paul`s girdle, he bound his own feet and hands, and said, Thus saith the Holy Spirit, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. Acts 21:10,11

    He was sent by the Holy Spirit, that makes him an apostle. He prophesied by the Holy Spirit, that makes him a prophet. Anyone know of such things going on today?
     
    #18 kyredneck, Sep 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2010

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