Apostles Creed ?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by west, Jun 11, 2005.

  1. west

    west
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    We read this Creed at times at church .Every time after the reading my Pastor says that the word Holy Catholic Church means the church universal not the Roman Catholic Church .I read about how that Creed was changed up to the 8th century words added and some taken away . I think the Catholic church influenced its writing .Why did;n t the writers say the Body of Christ or the Church period .Anyone ever hear anything about this ?Thank you .PS. I like the Creed .
     
  2. Brandon C. Jones

    Brandon C. Jones
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    Hi West,

    I believe that the most reasonable answer to your question is that the creed itself supposedly countered gnostic teaching. Perhaps, the creed writers included "catholic" (universal) to distinguish their beliefs regarding the church from the gnostic teaching that church doctrines were for a few, but not everyone.

    There is no way to tell for sure if "catholic" indeed was original (you're right the most common verson of the creed today is from the 8th century). There's also no way to know for sure what the motives were behind the creed writers for including "catholic" if it is indeed part of the original creed. My suggestion above is merely speculation since most any historical creed is in response to a heresy, and one should keep in mind what the creed is in response to when trying to determine motives behind its wording.

    BJ

    P.S. I like the creed too (except the whole "descent into Hades" part is, IMO, a more interesting feature of the creed).
     
  3. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello there.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints...

    It's a good point and I just went along with the notion that 'catholic' meant universal but I see that the Church would be mentioned twice once after the other ...the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints... Since the communion of the saints is the Church?

    john.
     
  4. Ben W

    Ben W
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    catholic does mean universal, if it had a captial "C" as in "Catholic" that would be a different matter.
     
  5. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    catholic: Including or concerning all humankind

    Catholic: Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church
     
  6. rsr

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    "Catholic" was not in the original creed, which may date as far back as the end of the second century.

    The Old Roman Creed, in its form circa 340:

    "I Believe in God almighty
    And in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord
    Who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
    Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried
    And the third day rose from the dead
    Who ascended into heaven
    And sitteth on the right hand of the Father
    Whence he cometh to judge the living and the dead.
    And in the Holy Spirit
    The holy church
    The remission of sins
    The resurrection of the flesh
    The life everlasting."

    The "catholic" reference had been added by the Gallican version of the mid sixth century and is generally believed not necessarily to be a reference to the Latin Rite church, but is, as Brandon said, a refutation of gnosticism. As James Kiefer said:

    "The Gnostics believed that the most important Christian doctrines were reserved for a select few. The orthodox belief was that the fullness of the Gospel was to be preached to the entire human race. Hence the term 'catholic,' or universal, which distinguished them from the Gnostics."
     
  7. Jeffrey H

    Jeffrey H
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    That's good! It's a timeless ancient creed that states the essentials of our faith originating from the Bible. Baptists in my area tend to avoid it considering it too "formal" or "catholic" to use in worship.

    I agree with the others. Catholic means "universal" and is not in reference to Roman church.
     
  8. Bro. James

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    Creeds--are of men, regardless of age and time.

    "Sanctify them in Thy Truth, thy Word is Truth", should be sufficient. Most folks seem to want to follow the commandments of men. That is why most of us are in a "ditch"--blind leading blind.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  9. Jeffrey H

    Jeffrey H
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    A typical "Baptist" response. The Apostle's Creed is not Scripture, but it does indeed express the truth of Scripture in summary form.

    "Sanctify them in Thy Truth, thy Word is Truth" is a great verse, but a Jehovah's Witness could use the same verse to support their heretical doctrines.

    Baptists will often declare, "The Bible is my only Creed". That is a good statement but it is insufficient because it does not express what you believe about it.
     
  10. Bro. James

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    Creeds--again, are of men. The Truth is of God.

    Hide The Word in the heart, not the Creed.

    Creeds are in the same category as beads, Hail Marys, crucifixes and other satanic/human diversions from the plain truth of the Word of God.

    Want to "rote" something? "Rote" The Word.

    Then let the Holy Spirit bear witness.

    No, this is not typical "Baptist".

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  11. jdcanady

    jdcanady
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    Bro. James

    I think you are a little harsh on creeds, putting them in the category of beads, Hail Marys, etc. Creeds are useful, but not infallable. They summarize important elements of the Truth. They can and should be modified as the Spirit illumines our minds with the Truth of God's Word.
     
  12. Bro. James

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    Useful for what? An adjunct to "Thus saith The Lord"?

    The so-called Apostle's Creed has a lot of the marks of the "holy see".

    What fellowship has the Temple of God with Belial?

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp.
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    This creed thing is dead interesting.

    Is a Church statement of faith the same as a creed?

    I don't think Bro.James is too harsh. I have no trust in man made things.

    john.
     
  14. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
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    Good point. It is the "thing" now to have a "Statement of Faith" as well as a "Mission Statement."

    But shouldn't we all subscribe to the Creed, the Baptist distinctives, and the Great Commission?
     
  15. GulliverBarb

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    Here is scripture reference for the Apostles Creed. I don't understand how any christian can have a problem with this.

    •1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. [Eph.4:6; 1 Cor.8:6; Ps.86:10; 145;3; Rev.1:8; Heb.11:3; Gen.1:1-3; Neh.9:6; Ac.17:24-26]
    •2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. [2 Pet.1:16-18; Jn.10:30,36-38; Col.1:15,17-19; 2:3,9; 1 Cor.8:6]
    •3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. [Mt.1:18-25; Lk.2:8-11]
    •4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. [Lk.23:13-25,32-34,44-46; 1 Cor.15:3-4; Isa.53:4-8]
    •5. He descended to the dead. [Mt.12:38-40; Ac.2:22-28; 1 Pet.3:18-19]
    •6. On the third day He rose again. [Mt.27:62-66; 28:1-9; Lk.24:44-47; Rom.1:2-4; 1 Cor.15:12-14,19-20]
    •7. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. [Jn.20:17; Lk.24:49-51; Heb.1:1-3; 9:24; 10:12-13; 12:2]
    •8. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. [Ac.1:10-11; Mt.24:27,36; 25:31-34,41,46; Jn.14:1.3; 1 Thes.4:15-18; 2 Pet.3:10-13]
    •9. I believe in the Holy Spirit [Jn.16:7-15; Ac.1:8-9; 1 Cor.6:19-20; Gal.5:22-23,25; Eph.4:30-32],
    •10. the Universal Church [Eph.1:22-23; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.2:18-22; 1 Cor.12:13-14,27],
    •11. the communion of saints [Ac.2:42-47; 1 Cor.10:16-17; 1 Jn.1:5-7; Gal.6:2,10],
    •12. the forgiveness of sins [Mt.26:26-28; 1 Jn.4:9-10; Rom.5:6-10; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-2],
    •13. the resurrection of the body [Jn.6:39-40,44; 5:28-29; 1 Cor.15:23,42-44,50-54; Phil.3:20-21],
    •14. and the life everlasting [Jn.11:25; 3:14-16; 1 Jn.5:11-13; Jn.10:10; 1 Pet.1:3-5; Rev.21:1,3-4]. Amen.
     
  16. Bro. James

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    Salutations, johnp,

    Hope you are having a blessed day.

    Excellent question, Brother.

    There are written statements of "Things Believed Among Us". These seem to be making a statement to the outside world in terms of doctrinal differences. However, the scripture says we are known by our fruits, not by what we say we believe.

    There is a document called a "Church Covenant" which is an internal document stating the purpose of the assembly and the circumspectness of the members. There is nothing particularly "binding" about the document. It is a good outline for a "membership" class. So is I and II Corinthians. Perhaps this document(church covenant) is one of those "Baptist Barnacles Without Biblical Basis".

    Then there are the creeds. There is something subtly deceptive about the origin of these documents. They are shrouded in the smoke screen of the "holy see". Better it is to stay clear of such things.

    Why not go for the unadulterated?

    There are enough things in the scripture to keep one busy for a lifetime. Why clutter The Truth with man's depraved efforts to define God?

    Beware the wolves dressed as sheep.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  17. Jeffrey H

    Jeffrey H
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    On Sunday, we sang the hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy”. This hymn is essentially a creed and we are reciting the creed as we sing it; the only difference is its set to music. Would that be in the same category as “beads” and “Hail Mary’s”?

    Baptists recite creeds every Sunday; we call them hymns and songs. That being said, it’s very important that the songs we sing are supported and validated by the Holy Bible.
     
  18. GulliverBarb

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    Amen Jeffrey!
    That is an excellent point.
     
  19. Bro. James

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    The problem is:

    When you ask someone who espouses the "Apostles' Creed" "have you been born again?", you get answers like: Well, I am Catholic; or, I have been baptized; or, I am a member of "thus and such"; or, I have been a Christian all my life; or, I was born a Christian; or, I am not sure--cannot know until the end; these are just a few. Jesus told Nicodemus: "You must be born again". John Ch. 3.

    Another creed of sorts: "Hail, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women; blessed is the fruit of thy womb--Jesus. Holy, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.(This is a paraphrase of scripture + mariolatry.) I learned these words when I was 5--I still have them etched in memory--55 years later. The Lord has led from darkness unto His glorious Light in the meanwhile.

    Repeat the Hail Marys __ times to invoke the powers from on high; to receive indulgence for sin; to reduce purgatory time for yourself and your loved ones. If that does not work, go visit Lourdes or Majorgoria(sic).

    Beware. Satan himself is become an angel of light.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  20. GulliverBarb

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    Those responses can also be heard from those spouting the "Roman's Road" also...

    I see the "Hail Mary" is a whole different matter. I do not relate it as a creed at all.
     

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