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Apparently there is one thing God can't do.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Apr 13, 2004.

  1. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe New Member

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    Brother Skandelon,

    Hello. I still am awaiting a reply on this one. I will not post it anymore as it is certainly your right to answer or not answer whatever you want.

    ME:I too do not believe God directly causes all external factors, but I do believe he permits all external factors to occur. Do you? And IF YES, then wouldnt it also hold true (according to your belief) that God must WILL TO PERMIT a sufficient amount of external factors in one individuals life to accomplish a change in their desires therby allowing them to choose to be saved, but on the flip side it must also be concluded that God also WILLS NOT TO PERMIT another individual to be exposed to these very same external factors (which had they been exposed to them it would have resulted in them accepting Christ)? (Excuse the very long run on and poorly phrased sentece.)

    Brother Joe
     
  2. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe New Member

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    Brother Skandelon,

    Hi. Unfortunatly I will not be able to post on here very often anymore because of obligations to my family, church duites, and work. Though often disagreeing with your conclusions I enjoy our scriptural discussions and believe you are a very intelligent debater. I can tell you love the Lord very much despite our doctrinal differences. This last post of mine is quite long, but I ask you please read it all as I dont think I will be posting for at least a few days, and when I do it will probably be quite infrequent. It took me about over an hour to write lol!

    Lastly, I would encourage you to read a short pamphlet by elder Michael Gowens entitled Temporal Salvation. The link is http://www.sovgrace.net/TimeSalvation.pdf It very much blessed me.

    If you have a books you recommend on your position I would be glad to read it. Lord willing, perhaps I will still post every now and than. I will read your reply to my last two post and as Mr. O Rielly says from the factor, "Ill give you the final word."


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BrotherJoe:

    ME: If it is number 2, then why doesnt everyone end up in this position since we all have the same nature?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    YOUR REPLY: But we don't necessarily all have the same nature, or at least we are not all in the same condition.


    ME: I vehemently disagree. ***Scripture teaches the regenerated man prior to becoming born again has the EXACT SAME nature/condition as every unregerated man **** Please consider the following 2 passages

    "9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise (**THIS VERSE WOUDNT BE TRUE IF SOME PEOPLE HAD NATURES LESS EVIL THAN OTHERS**): for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are ALL under sin;
    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (**THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF HUMANS-THOSE TOTALLY RIGHTEOUS VIA CHRISTS IMPUTATION OR THOSE TOTALLY EVIL IN AN UNREGERATED STATE, SCRIPTURE KNOWS NO PARTIALLY RIGHTEOUS INDIVIDUAL**)
    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (**THE LANGUAGE FOUND IN VERSE 11 AND 12 SHOW THE EQUAL AND TOTAL FALL OF EVERY MANS NATURE**)
    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
    14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    17 And the way of peace have they not known:
    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. (***VERSES 13-18 DESCRIBE A NATURE THAT IS TOTALLY DEPRAVED NATURE FOR ALL***)
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Romans 3:9-19 (***THIS VERSE MAKES CLEAR WHOM PAUL IS DESCRIBING-EVERY MAN***)

    Here is the other applicable passage, "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH EVEN AS OTHERS. But God, who is rich in mercy...Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ" (Ephesians 2:2-5)


    YOU: Some of us have been influenced in certain ways and others differently depending upon our environment...So we may all be born with a sinful nature but that doesn't mean they can't be influenced either positively or negatively

    ME: I agree the enviornment influences each one of us. But are nature cannot be changes via the enviornment. Remember these 2 verses, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil" (Jeremiah 13:23) and "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one (Job 14:4)


    YOU: Some of us allow our hearts to grow hard by rejecting the truth time and time again. This person would have much more difficult time believing the truth because he has grown acustom to rejecting the things of God...Why else would God warn us not to let our hearts grow hardened?

    ME: I did a word search for your phrase "hardened heart" in the KJV at www.biblegateway.com. Whats interesting is the phrase appears only 24 times in the Bible, the majority (i.e. 16 times) of which it is in reference to King Pharoah. Why is this relevant? Because who hardened pharoahs heart, himself or God? It was God. Also, was it in reference to God hardening his heart concerning wether he would believe the gospel or not? No.

    Most of the other times the phrase "hardened heart" is used throughout the Bible, it is also in reference to others similar unique events in the Old Testament and have no relation to an individual hardening his heart on receiving the gospel. Again, in most of these examples it is also made clear to the Bible reader that it was God NOT the individual who hardened the heart, " But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day" (Deuteronomy 2:30)

    Finally, the phrase "hardened heart" is used only 3 times in the New Testament gospels and only to describe hardened Jews. This time it is in relation to them hardening their heart toward the gospel. However, ****scripture again makes clear to the Bible reader that it was God not the individual who hardened their hearts in order to bring about the messiah being rejected and crucified for God's eternal plan of redemption.*** " Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23) This hardening was done also to fufill special prophecy "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive" (Matthew 13:14).


    YOU: The bible speaks of external factors and conditions hindering or assisting man's likeliness to accept the truth. Being rich apparently hinders faith and obedience. Have you ever wondered why Jesus would teach that its very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Why would it be any more difficult for God to effectually call a rich man than it would for him to call a poor man? It wouldn't, which leads me to believe that external factors must make a difference.

    ME: These calls to the kingdom you are referring to are not calls to eternal salvation, but rather calls to discipleship. It is important to distinguish-discipleship and being saved are not one in the same. The Bible makes it clear one can be saved and not be a disciple, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Cor 3:1-3)

    A rich man has no more difficulty becoming saved than does a poor man. Why? Because, "we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, EVEN AS THEY"(Acts 15:11). God saves everyone in the same manner. It is God that saves not the enviornment!

    Now scripture does teach a saved rich man will have more difficulty in being a disciple and devoted follower of our Lord than will a saved poor man because of external factors. The following passage from our Lord makes evident this important distinguishment between disciplship and being a believer...please read it:

    Luke 8:13-15, "13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, RECEIVE THE WORD with joy; and these have no root, WHICH FOR AWHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.
    14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, AND ARE CHOKED WITH THE CARES AND RICHES AND PLEASURES OF THIS LIFE, and bring no fruit to perfection.
    15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, AND BRING FORTH FRUIT with patience"

    Notice the first group are believers who receive the word but fall away-nondisciples. The final group does not let riches get in the way and bring forth fruit-these are disciples. Though I am not dogmatic on wether the rich young ruler was a child of God , I believe it is quite possible he was, yet his riches prevented him from being a disciple.

    YOU:I know the verse is in reference to the Jewish people but it still certainly goes to prove the overall nature of God who does display his desire to save a group of people who were unwilling. You don't think that relates to our discussion? Please explain why not.

    ME: Your exactly right Brother Skandelon- it is relevant. You said, "
    it still certainly goes to prove the overall nature of God who does display his desire to save a group of people who were unwilling" God not only desires to save people who are unwilling, but he does save people who were unwilling by quickening them to the truth, "13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD" (John 1:13)

    May God bless you Brother Skandelon,

    Brother Joe
     
  3. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I will touch a few of the points above as time allows:

    1. Our argument over man's nature/condition is a semantical one. You said, "I agree the enviornment influences each one of us." And really that is all I was saying. Heb. 3 clearly tells us "do not let your heart grow hardened." And if you have been reading my posts on the Tread "God that's not fair" you would see that I not only acknowledge the doctrine God's active judicial hardening but it is at the very root of my defense for why Calvinists err in their interpretation of scripture. Please refer to that thread because I don't have time to repeat all of that here.

    2. As to your arguments concerning the Rich Young Ruler and Lordship Salvation I will refer you to John MacArthur's book "The Gospel according to Jesus" and "The Gospel according to the Disciples." There are many arguments that could be raised against your belief that one can be saved but never follow Christ as Lord of their lives, as true disciples. Again, I don't have time to address all of them but I've given you two great sources that more than defeat those claims.

    3. In reference to Matt. 23 you wrote: Your exactly right Brother Skandelon- it is relevant. You said, "it still certainly goes to prove the overall nature of God who does display his desire to save a group of people who were unwilling" God not only desires to save people who are unwilling, but he does save people who were unwilling by quickening them to the truth, "13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD" (John 1:13)

    Now I would like to say with this point. You admit that Matt. 23:37 is God's expression of a desire to save men who are not saved and then you argue that he desires to save other men who are also unwilling, but they are saved. I agree that both groups of men started out "unwilling" but only one group remained unwilling, right? Your system tends to argue that the first group remained unwilling because God was not willing to save them, but that is not what the text says. What is the variable here Joe? It is man's willingness, not God's. He is willing and that is made very clear in this text as well as others.
     
  5. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    God cannot do anything that is inconsistent with his nature. He is self-referential. He follows his own standard. That is why he cannot be anything but Sovereign

    I suppose those who think otherwise also ask stupid questions like "could God make a rock he couldn't lift?"
     
  6. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Philippians 9:2-11 -

    Many say that every tongue includes both saved and unsaved, humans and angels, including Satan. What do you think, in connection with your belief that none is saved except he places himself under the Lordship of Christ ?

    Superdave said:

    :D [​IMG]

    Did you know my sister, a Full Gospel, who likes to say Jesus Christ is Lord of her life (until her husband comes home from working in Saudi..then he is temporarily lord of her life, no Bible studies, no visiting, no ministry at all which she does when he's away), actually said that ?
     
  7. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I use to preach on a weekly radio program in this area; there was also preaching there at the same time a Pentecostal [Full Gospel] preacher. Often, his sermons would be time spent refuting what I said.

    One day he asked me how I could believe God would be so unfair that He elected some people to be eternally saved and elected others to be eternally lost and if I didn't know that by believing that I was holding back the 'full' gospel message from my hearers.

    I asked him why he thought I believed that and why he, if preaching the full gospel didn't believe that all men were born into the same lost condition.

    He said he did believe that but he could never tell me what made me [and himself] 'better' than those who did not believe the report of the Gospel message.

    Then I asked him to point to me where the gospel had never been full, where is it empty? Is it empty in the sovereignty of God? Or is it empty in the will of man?

    Do we make God empty?

    He said we didn't make God empty, but it was like a glass of water, half full [speaking of the atonement], then I said, how do you have the full gospel? In God's Sovereignty our cup runneth over.

    Well, he said, God is fair, yes, he is, said I, so there are no children born deaf, blind, crippled, into abusive homes, all that is an imagination of man's society, right?

    We err when we hold God to our standard of fairness.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  8. Theo

    Theo New Member

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    Frogman,

    Good points brother. I have often, when approached with such earthy examples of "fairness", will ask the opposition:

    "If a judge has ten people standing in front of him, and out of those ten he can pardon two, and upon pardoning two of them, can the other eight claim the judge to be unfair?"

    Well, of course they can't, because they were all guilty. Justice must be served before mercy can take place.

    As I have said before, the geniusness of the TULIP acronym, is that it starts with the "T". Until one comes to the truth about man's inabilities, that are clearly laid out within' the Scriptures, all else will not be looked at from the proper perspective.

    Soli Deo Gloria,

    Theo
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Pardon me if this has already been said, but it seems to me that according to many who advocate free will choice in salvation, one of the things God cannot do is enforce His will over man's will (which, incidentally, makes man sovereign over God with respect to salvation).

    According to the interpretation of scripture by these particular advocates, God is not willing that any man who ever lived, lives or will live should perish, but that all men who ever lived, lives or will live come to eternal life.

    One cannot say that God is "unwilling" to override the will of men with respect to salvation. The starting (contrary) assumption is that it is God's will that nobody should perish. If God is not willing that any should perish, and that goal requires God must override man's will, then either God must not be willing to override man's will so that they will not perish (thus contradicting the starting assumption), or God cannot override man's will.

    One could claim that it is more important to God that man be sovereign over salvation than to actually have them saved, but then that still pulls the rug out from under the assumption that God is not willing that any should perish -- obviously He is willing to let them perish if He allows them to make their own decision in the matter.

    If, therefore, one interprets this passage to mean "everyone who lived, lives or will live", then either God can save everyone but is unwilling to do so, or God is willing to save everyone but cannot do so.

    Obviously, free will advocates who believe it means God wants everyone who lived, lives or will live must believe God either by choice or by lack of power cannot execute His will in this matter.

    [ May 25, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]
     
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