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Archaic Words In The KJV

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Rippon, May 24, 2006.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Another word example is "study", especially in 2 Tim. 2:15. Some advocates of a certain version holler that their fave version is the only one that tells us to STUDY God's word. However, in OUR English, the MORE CORRECT rendering is "work diligently".

    However, NEITHER rendering is wrong. In Elizabethan English, 'study' also meant to strive or work diligently. An example of KJV Scripture proving this is 1 Thessalonians 4:11..."And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business,...". The modern definition of 'study' is to read or closely examine something with the object of learning. In modern English, "studying" to be quite would be quiet absurd, while many of us, myself included, must WORK DILIGENTLY, STRIVE to be quiet.

    While both renderings are right according to the era in which they were written, most people apply the modern meaning to the old word which meant something else when used in the older writing, & wonder why it doesn't seem to make sense.
     
    #21 robycop3, May 26, 2006
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I thought I'd transfer this from the Beautiful...

    Literature ? thread . The KJV wording will be at the top , and the TNIV will be below .

    Numbers

    11:12 that thou shouldest say unto me , Carry them in thy bosom , as a nursing father beareth the suckling child

    Why do you tell me to carry them in my arms , as a nurse carries an infant

    20:3 And the people chode with Moses

    They quarreled with Moses

    22:6 for I wot that he whom thou blessest is blessed

    For I know that whoever you bless is blessed

    22:30 was I ever wont to do so unto thee ?

    Have I been in the habit of doing this to you ?

    31:38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand

    36,000 cattle

    35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer

    Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer
     
    #22 Rippon, Jun 12, 2006
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Deuteronomy

    5:26 For who is there of all flesh

    For what mortal

    7:21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them

    Do not be terrified by them

    22:6 and the dam sitting upon the young , or upon the eggs , thou shalt not take the dam with the young

    and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs , do not take the mother with the young

    25:2 that the judge shall cause him to lie down , and to be beaten before his face , according to his fault , by a certain number

    the judge shall make them lie down and have them flogged in his presence with the number of lashes the crime deserves

    27:16 Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother

    Cursed is anyone who dishonors their father or mother

    28:28 The Lord shall smite thee with madness , and blindness , and astonishment of heart.

    The Lord will afflict you with madness , blindness and confusion of mind .

    28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment , a proverb , and a byword , among all nations whither the Lord shall lead thee .

    You will become a thing of horror , a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you .

    31:20 and they shall have eaten and filled themselves , and waxen fat

    and when they eat their fill and thrive

    32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God

    They made me jealous by what is no God

    32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them

    I will heap calamities on them

    34:7 nor his natural force abated

    nor his strength gone
     
    #23 Rippon, Jun 12, 2006
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The fact is...All those passages were perfectly clear to the British of 400 years ago.

    Shakespeare coined many then-new English words by making some nouns into verbs, much as we do today(I.E. "audibilize"), putting existing words together, adding prefixes & suffixes, making verbs into nouns & adjectives & vice-versa, as well as coining entirely-original words. Obviously, not every new word he coined caught on, but here are a few still in use:
    advertising
    buzzers(for an insect in one's ear)
    bandit
    champion
    drugged
    elbow
    skim milk
    submerged
    gossip
    lower(verb)
    invulnerable
    fashionable

    Shakespeare had freedom to do this because he was writing his own compositions, while Bible translators were limited to the rendering of already-written texts into English. Thus, they were pretty-well limited to already-existing words.

    Some people holler that those who wouldn't dare 'modernize'(See...another adjective changed to a verb!) a Shakespeare work don't hesitate to 'modernize' the Bible...but they've forgotten that Shakespeare's works were frozen in time with his death, while GOD'S word is alive as is its author...and that He keeps it before us in OUR languages. Shakespeare wrote for his contemporaries, as did the AV men...but GOD causes His word to be written for ALL generations.
     
    #24 robycop3, Jun 13, 2006
  5. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    Rippon,

    If I held to your argument I would have to revamp the education system, who ever heard of disciplines being an academic term? Medical science, geology, geography, history, etc. all use archaic terms because their disciplines arose in the past. You would not suggest they too change all their texts or that they are foolish ignorant creatures for adhering to such an archaic vocabulary.

    To insinuate old fashioned ideals and words as being old fashioned ignorance and then try to "tactfully" attack them through word games is underhanded IMO. Those of us who use the KJV have very few problems with the word usage and the longer we use the KJV the less problems we have.

    IMO it is no different then learning the appropriate language to use in high society, academia, or some other discipline.

    Your post may not have been an attack but it came across that way to me and perhaps others as well.


    :type:
     
    #25 thjplgvp, Jun 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2006
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    My postings are attacks ?! What , on God's Word ? Far from it . I am just pointing out the obvious . Many wordings in the KJV are still crystal-clear . Yet , let's be honest -- many other passages are too obscure to be serviceable these days . To a lesser degree the NKJ has many cumbersome and old-fashined renderings . To a lesser extent the NASU and the ESV . A goal of any good , reliable Bible translation should be clarity . (I know certain verses are not so clear and therefore should not be forced to be clear for the sake of expedience .)

    Merely demonstrating that certain phrases in the KJV are indeed antiquated in this age is not a sinful exercise . Noah Webster thought that the KJV needed updating 173 years ago ! ( His version is just a shade from the KJV wording at most .) As has been poited out -- God's Word is alive and not encapsulated in pre-King James-speak ( it is largely William Tyndale's work -- especially the N.T. ) .
     
    #26 Rippon, Jun 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2006
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother Rippon -- Preach it! :thumbs: :thumbs:

    What is even more interesting is the WRONG DOCTRINES
    proprogated today because of misunderstandings
    of words in the KJV.

    Seems some folks need to underestand that the meaning of
    the KJV1769 Ediltion Bible is the meaning the words had
    in 1769 NOT in 2006.
     
    #27 Ed Edwards, Jun 13, 2006
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the encouraging words Brother Ed . I was wondering if I would ever hear you say "Preach it !" to me .

    Now let's turn to the book of Joshua .

    2:4 but I wist not whence they were

    but I did not know where they had come from

    7:11 and dissembled also

    they have lied

    10:21 none moved his tongue against any of the children of Israel

    and no one uttered a word against the Israelites .

    11:9 he houghed their horses

    He hamstrung their horses

    16:10 and serve under tribute

    are required to do forced labor

    19:47 And the coast of the children of Dan went out too little for them

    When the territory of the Danites was lost to them

    20:9 that whosoever killeth any person at unawares might flee thither

    who killed somone accidentally could flee to these designated cities

    22:22 The Lord God of gods , the Lord God of gods

    The Mighty One , God , the Lord ! The Mighty One , God , the Lord !

    22:29 God forbid

    Far be it from us
     
    #28 Rippon, Jun 14, 2006
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Being readable as a translation is very important

    As usual , the KJV is at the top and the TNIV is at the bottom of the following phrases .

    Judges

    2:22 That through them I may prove Israel

    I will use them to test Israel

    3:22 and the dirt came out

    and his bowels discharged

    3:29 all lusty

    all vigorous

    5:22 Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the prancings

    Then thundered the horses' hooves -- galloping

    8:30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten

    He had seventy sons of his own

    9:17 and ventured his life far

    and risked his life to rescue you

    11:35 and thou art one of them that trouble me

    I am devastated

    15:1 Samson visited his wife with a kid

    Samson took a young goat and went to visit his wife

    15:3 though I do them a displeasure

    I will really harm them

    18:23 What aileth thee , that thou comest with such a company ?

    What's the matter with you that you called out your men to fight ?

    19:19 straw and provender ... there is no want of anything.

    straw and fodder ... We don't need anything .

    21:14 and yet so they sufficed them not .

    But there were not enough for all of them .
     
    #29 Rippon, Jun 15, 2006
  10. william s. correa

    william s. correa New Member

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    Oh yea?

    Who uses Hades? Spritualists!
     
    #30 william s. correa, Jun 15, 2006
  11. william s. correa

    william s. correa New Member

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    Obscure?

    Gods Book is A Spiritual Book not a Novel or a cheap paperback! The revisions of the KJB are in fact more accurate than tomorrows paper.
     
    #31 william s. correa, Jun 15, 2006
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    :laugh:

    tee hee, actually the answer is: Greeks

    'hades' is Greek
    'hell' is Anglo-Saxon from the Norsemen
    'gehenia' is Hebrew

    Guess which was used in the N.T. - 'hades'
    Guess which was used in the O.T. l- 'gehenia'
     
    #32 Ed Edwards, Jun 15, 2006
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    1 Samuel

    2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering , which I have commanded in my habitation

    Why do you scorn my sacrifice and offering that I prescribed for my dwelling ?

    2:33 shall be to consume thine eyes , and to grieve thine heart : and all the increase of thine house shall die in the flower of their age .

    to destroy your sight and sap your strength , and all your descendants will die in the prime of life .

    3:1 And the word of the Lord was precious in those days ; there was no open vision .

    In those days the word of the Lord was rare ; there were not many visions .

    14:11 And both of them discovered themselves unto the garrison of the Philistines

    So both of them showed themselves to the Philistine outpost

    16:18 cunning in playing

    knows how to play the lyre

    17:29 Is there not a cause ?

    Can't I even speak ?

    17:53 they spoiled their tents

    they plundered their camp

    19:3 I will commune with my father of thee

    I'll speak to him about you

    20:19 when the business was in hand

    when this trouble began

    20:23 And as touching the matter

    And about the matter

    20:30 to thine own confusion , and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness ?

    to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you ?

    23:9 secretly practised mischief against him

    plotting against him

    28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along the earth

    Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground

    31:9 to publish it in the house of their idols , and among the people

    to proclaim the news in the temple of their idols and among their people
     
    #33 Rippon, Jun 16, 2006
  14. william s. correa

    william s. correa New Member

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    But jesus would have said "Gahenna" in Luke 16 not in the Greek MSS but in the Hebrew MSS to the people he was preaching to!Amen
     
    #34 william s. correa, Jun 16, 2006
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Luke was written in Greek. So no matter what language Jesus used,
    the reading is 'hades':

    Luke 16:23 (KJV1769 with Strong's numbers):
    Luk 16:23 And2532 in1722 hell86 he lifted up1869 his848 eyes,3788
    being5225 in1722 torments,931 and seeth3708 Abraham11
    afar off,575, 3113 and2532 Lazarus2976 in1722 his846 bosom.2859

    G86
    ᾅδης
    hadēs
    hah'-dace
    From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly
    unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state)
    of departed souls: - grave, hell.
     
    #35 Ed Edwards, Jun 16, 2006
  16. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Gehenna was also used as the name of the valley outside Jerusalem where the garbage fires burned continuously, day and night. Jesus referred to it to give illustration of just what hell would be like.
     
    #36 Trotter, Jun 17, 2006
  17. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    HELL - Gehenna, Hades, Sheol?

    Gehenna, or Hinnom, is a valley south of Jerusalem where the backslidden, idolatrous Jews at certain points in history sacrificed their children by fire to Molech and Baal. This valley later became the "garbage dump" of Jerusalem, and it is said that fires were kept constantly burning for the destruction of the filth thrown there. In most of its occurrences in the NT, Gehenna refers to the place of the lost.

    Hades is the Greek word used to denote the unseen place of the dead. All the dead go there. However, there is a separation in that the evil dead are in torment while the righteous dead are not (see Luke 16:19-31).

    Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead. As with the Greek Hades, all the dead go there. It is the abode of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead (Psalms 9:17; 16:10; 30:3; 31:17 are just a few references). Sheol is described as dark (Job 10:21-22), deep (Job 11:8 ) and barred (Job 17:16). The dead also go down to it (Numbers 16:30, 33; Ezekiel 31:15-17).

    There will be an eternal "lake of fire" created at a later date. The grave (Sheol/Hades) will give up its dead so that they may face the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the world. Those whose names are not written in "the Lamb's Book of Life" will be sentenced to an eternity of fire and torment along with Satan and the fallen angels (Revelation 20:11-15). This place does not exist yet, but its permanence and the scope of its torment are reality.

    Hopefully this clarifies things. The MVs are more accurate in transliterating these words into English than the KJV is in translating them all as "hell." And no, Mr. Correa, this is not an attack on the KJV but merely a statement of fact.
     
    #37 Keith M, Jun 17, 2006
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Some things I missed

    I have seen suburbs scores of times in the KJV Old Testament . It simply means pasturelands . That is quite different from today's meaning .

    Here are a couple I missed in Genesis:

    KJV at the top and TNIV at the bottom .

    2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth .

    This is the account of the heavens and the earth .
    ( generations is also used by the KJV in 5:1;6:9;10:1;11:10,27;25:12,19;36:1;37:2 )

    20:6 therefore suffered I thee not to touch her .

    That is why I did not let you touch her .

    21:31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ; because there they sware both of them .

    So that place was called Beersheba , because the two men swore an oath there .

    26:10 one of the people might have lightly lien with thy wife

    One of the men might well have slept with your wife

    26:31 And they rose up betimes in the morning

    Early the next morning

    This is from Leviticus 13:47 The garment also that the plague of leprosy is in .

    As for any fabric that is spoiled with a defiling mold
     
    #38 Rippon, Jun 18, 2006
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  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    2 Samuel

    1:9 because my life is yet whole in me

    but I'm still alive .

    1:21 for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away

    For there the shield of the mighty was despised

    1:22 from the fat of the mighty

    from the flesh of the mighty

    2:6 and I also will requite you this kindness

    and I will show you the same favor

    3:39 the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me

    these sons of Zeruiah are too strong for me

    4:1 his hands were feeble

    he lost courage

    4:7 and gat them away through the plain all night

    they traveled all night by way of the Arabah

    5:8 Whosoever getteth up to the gutter

    Anyone ... will have to use the water shaft

    5:24 that then thou shalt bestir thyself

    move quickly

    6:7 and God smote him there for his error

    because of his irreverent act ; therefore God struck him down

    6:8 and David was displeased , because the Lord had made a breach upon Uzzah

    Then David was angry because the Lord's wrath had broken out against Uzzah

    6:22 And I will yet be more vile than thus

    I will become even more undignified than this

    7:8 I took thee from the sheepcote

    I took you from the pasture , from tending the flock

    7:12 out of thy bowels

    from your own body

    7:19 And is this the manner of man

    And as if this were not enough

    12:18 how will he then vex himself

    He may do something desperate

    12:27 and have taken the city of waters

    I will take the city

    13:2 And Amnon was so vexed

    And Amnon became so obsessed

    13:9 have out all men from me

    Send everyone out of here

    13:20 regard not this thing

    Don't take this thing to heart

    14:4 and did obeisance

    fell with her face to the ground to pay him honor

    14:20 To fetch about this form of speech hath thy servant Joab done this thing

    Your servant Joab did this to change the present situation

    14:26 And when he polled his head

    Whenever he cut the hair of his head

    16:8 and , behold , thou art taken in thy mischief

    You have come to ruin

    18:3 it is better that thou succour us out of the city

    It would be better now for you to give us support from the city

    20:18 and so they ended the matter

    and that settled it

    22:37 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me

    You provide a broad path for my feet

    23:21 a goodly man

    a huge Egyptian
     
    #39 Rippon, Jun 19, 2006
  20. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    And God apparently since that is the word often used in original language mss- without dispute.
     
    #40 Scott J, Jun 19, 2006
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