Are Adam/Eve in Heaven?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dr. Bob, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Have always assumed it, but a friend pointed out that Abel is the first "righteous" person mentioned in the Bible (and Heb 11 list - creation in 11:3, then Abel 11:4 - no mention of A&E)

    So I'd like to think this through biblically and not just what we've always assumed.

    Tanks. :godisgood:
     
  2. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    My understanding is...

    ...that Adam didn't have to offer burnt animal flesh either. The point is, he and she were "saved" by the sacrifice God made for them of the skins He then gave them.

    skypair
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Don't think that will fly. " . . because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." (Heb 10:4) So God says is would not be possible for them to be "saved" by animal sacrifice.

    Others?
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    0
    So our great, great, ad infinitum grandparents are in hell and buring?
    :eek:

    I've always heard it explained the way skypar mentioned it (though I'm loathed to admit it). The sacrafical animals were only a forshawdowing of Jesus for the Jews and I believe Adam and Eve. What about Lilith? :laugh:
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I need to think more on this but for now 2 things come to mind in defense of Adam being saved:

    1) Abel being the first mentioned as righteous is an argument from silence that Adam was not saved and therefore fallacious or at least not valid enough.

    and

    2) This verse:
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come Rom. 5.14

    It is hard for me to fathom a "type" of Christ being someone who was not saved.

    Well, 3 things come to mind!

    3) I think the sacrifice God made for Adam and Eve differs from those done later, because those were done by men and this one was done by God. Therefore, it would have eternal implications, imo. I am thinking Heb 10.4 refers to the sacrifices made by men.
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is not one definitive verse of scripture that states either Adam or Eve to be saved as we know it.

    In Gen 3:14f we have only the serpent who is cursed forever and not Eve. "..becaise thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all..but in 15 it says, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel...." It goes on to speak of Adam paying a price for disobedience all of his life, but no mention of paradise or hell at this point.

    In verse 22, it then talks about the (generic) man knowing good and evil....but...."lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." It strongly talks of a forever life, and I can't think of anything aside of salvation from this verse.

    In verse 22, God mad "NEW" clothes for Adam and Eve. Coats of skins and clothed them. Highly suggestive of the new birth as it was understoood in the Old Testament, where whilst anial sacrifices in themself did not save, the act of faith in making the sacrifices did provide a way of salvation, looking forward to the supreme sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross. We have the old skin..the old life...exchanged with a new skin (salvation) the new life in Christ.

    Just my thoughts on it.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    I will "ditto" Marcia on this one------hard for me to fathom the illustration God uses in Scripture describing the Lord Jesus Christ as "Last Adam"(1Cor. 15:45)----taking the life of a lost person to illustrate the eternal life of Christ
     
  8. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is, of course, true. You do neglect, though, that God Himself by doing so was showing what HE had already done for Adam AND EVE. But I suppose that you will go on purposely misunderstanding and not considering my points since I always seem to think outside your "box," eh?

    Maybe you will see it if I describe it "within your box." God "drew" them out ("effecaciously called" them) and they "came" "regenerated" to Him for justification of sin (not really the first but your box doesn't give me much to work with :laugh: ).

    For the others, I'll expand my understanding of it below.

    skypair
     
  9. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    For the rest, the good Dr couldn't tell you this, but...

    ... Adam and Eve were the "seed" planted on the "wayside" of creation. There was no "soil" for faith to germinate in because they were innocent -- totally untested faith. You probably remember this state from when you were children.

    Along comes the "fowls" (Satan) and, tempting them, "came and devoured them up."

    But you know how I learned what happened next? A couple of times in Memphis I had first a tomato plant and then a sunflower grow up where there was no original source plant anywhere in sight! Similarly, the "fowls" here deposited Adam and Eve into the "shallow soil."

    There was not much depth of faith but we see that the seeds could germinate there -- there was revelation of the Spirit and of God there whereby they could be saved. Adam and Eve, without a doubt, did receive the revelation God gave them and were saved. This era or dispensation was cut off by the flood.

    The parable goes on in Mt 13:7-33 illuminating the dispensations to follow.

    skypair
     
  10. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,548
    Likes Received:
    13
    I don't think anyone can know for sure. You are right no one is saved by the blood of an animal. David was aware of this fact he said in;
    Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

    I was looking for something I read about Christ descending into hell to preach the gospel to the captives. We believe David was saved and according to him his soul went to hell. Adam may have been there as well and heard that message and believed.

    It seems to me to be very sad indeed if the first man was lost.
    MB
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are referring to 1 Peter 3.18ff but I have to disagree with you.

    I do not think this passage is saying Jesus went to preach the gospel to people who had already died - this would mean people could be saved after death. I do not this passage means Jesus went to the place of the dead at all, but even if He did (and some do believe this is what it says), he went to proclaim his victory to the unsaved and to the fallen angels. Others believe this passage is saying that Christ was preaching through Moses to those who were disobedient and did not listen to the warnings to repent.

    18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
    19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
    20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
    21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

    Here is Matthew Henry's commentary on this:
    If Christ could not be freed from sufferings, why should Christians think to be so? God takes exact notice of the means and advantages people in all ages have had. As to the old world, Christ sent his Spirit; gave warning by Noah. But though the patience of God waits long, it will cease at last. And the spirits of disobedient sinners, as soon as they are out of their bodies, are committed to the prison of hell, where those that despised Noah's warning now are, and from whence there is no redemption. Noah's salvation in the ark upon the water, which carried him above the floods, set forth the salvation of all true believers.

    There is no second chance after death, in the OT or the NT (Heb. 9.27)

    Also, why do you say David is in hell? (Keep in mind that often the word translated as "hell" in the Bible means the grave).
     
  12. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    To me...

    Marcia is right. The gospel of the OT was to bring them, "draw" them, unto God. Those who "come" God will (in the future) "give" into the MK of His Son.

    In between, they were reconciled to God by Christ's blood (not by His preaching in sheol) and, thus, their souls could go from "sheol" ("Abraham's bosom") to heaven where God is.

    skypair
     
  13. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,548
    Likes Received:
    13
    There was no Salvation until Jesus Christ. None of the old testament believers could have been saved with out Christ. The penality had to be paid. We don't get in to heaven on credit either. Christ said.
    Joh 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    David wrote;
    Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

    I know what hell means now and what it meant then.
    hell: The word hell, from the Saxon hillan or helan, to hide, or from holl, a cavern, though now used only for the place of torment, anciently denoted the concealed or unseen place of the dead in general; corresponding to the Greek αδηϚ, i.e., ο αιδηϚ τοπος, the invisible place and the Hebrew sheol, from shaal, to ask, seek, the place and state of those who are out of the way, and to be sought for.

    A book called Nicodemus from the Pseudepigrapha or New Testament Apocrypha. Tells of the descension of Christ into the lower parts of the earth. Eph 4:10 breifly mentions it.

    Why do I believe it? I believe it to be true it because it makes sence.
    We all know there is no other way to be saved except through Christ and David knew it as well.
    In verse 11 above David is admitting that he doesn't know the path to life and that he has faith God will show him. If you eliminate the colon after the first phrase because there were no colons in Hebrew you would be able to see David would learn of the path in the presence of Christ. Where is David? He says hell.
    The book of Nicodemus states that Hell was originally two compartments. One for nonbelievers and the other for believers. The difference was the believers were not punished but awaited the advent of Christ who they needed to be saved.
    MB
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    MB, yes OT saints were saved because Christ paid the penalty but they were saved by faith, just as NT saints are. Jesus was slain "from the foundation of the world" so it applied to OT people who believed in God.



    The meaning of "hell" that you cite means the grave. He has hope in God that he will not be left in the grave. This was also a prophecy of Jesus being resurrected.

    As for Eph. 4:10, "descended" clearly refers to Christ descending from heaven; it is contrasted with "ascended" - the ascension into heaven after his resurrection. Jesus talks in John constantly have God having "sent" Him. Christ descended from above to earth in the incarnation.

    I'm not going by the book of Nicodemus because it's not God's word so I'm not going to take it as such. God's word is sufficient for explaining the above.
     
  15. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marcia, Job is one of the best examples of Old Covenant salvation where Job says, "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; and though after worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God....." Job 19:25ff

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Point of interest - all people who are saved are saved by grace alone. Faith is a part of the vehicle (not works), but remember salvation itself is all of grace.

    "To the praise of the glory of His grace", not man's faith. That comes AFTER the grace part!
     
  17. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Salvation is by grace through faith alone. You cannot separate what Scripture does not.
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll say a hearty "Amen" to that, Brother Jim! :thumbs:

    If I recall correctly from a recent study of Job with my SS class, there is also a passage in Job that seems to imply that Job knew of a bodily resurrection but I can't recall where.
     
  19. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marcia, Couldn't be any clearer than this very verse:
    yet in my flesh shall I see God....." Job 19:25ff

    Cheers,

    Jim

    Considering Job is prolly the oldest book in the Old Testament, these words are very significant.
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I should have noticed those words in your previous post! [​IMG]

    That's the part I was thinking of! Thanks!
     

Share This Page

Loading...