Are All Men Drawn Equally?

I NEVER said that. I can't understand who said what since you cannot seem to get the quote feature right here on the BB.

Here is what I said "Well, if you want to diminish the value of those made in His image, that He felt were worthy to be sacrificed for...that's on you. He said it. I believe it."

Here is what God has said "For God so loved that world, that He gave...".

When will the ad hominems stop, Luke? Lunacy?!? I know I"m not worthy, but if in God's eye HE deems us so...who in the world are you to question HIM?!?

 

Quantum, that was my reply to Luke. Him not being able to use the quote function properly has screwed up the discussion. The ad hominem was calling my line of thinking "lunacy".

I went back and fixed it...hope that clears it up.

 

I have answered you questions over and over again. You just dont like my answers. So be it.

 

Sorry, "my bad". I get confused sometimes (often) with technology, even though I use it everyday.

 

My point exactly.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

This thread is a reminder to me, why I do not want to post on here as often as I once did. Passages pull from context where the same poster who was told three years ago he was wrong, and many times over from that time till now...STILL misuses Gods Word.

What's the point?

People seem to believe what they want to believe.

 

hmpth, more bickering than discussing.

Umm Luke, somewhere in here you told someone that if they couldn't agree with "x" then they were likely never to change. Hold on to that thought, lol, cause there are several of us who aren't going to change our theology. We've held it for more years than you've been alive. (man does that ever make me sound OLD) With that in mind lets discuss rather than bicker.

Jack and John. You keep saying there is another step. Where is this step described in scripture? I dont' see another step. I see a wall. The wall of our own will.

Let's go further. You (or someone in the past 11 pages) wondered why some were put in places where accepting Christ seems, to an outsider, to be easy while others were put into awful places where Christ's name might never be heard. I'm going to tell you a true story:

Not so many years ago, but before you were born, there were two teen girls who's fathers worked in the same place.

"R's" parents were outwardly "Christian" but inside the home there was abuse, mental illness, drug abuse and enough drama that R had no concept of self worth. Indeed, she was often told that she was dumb, stupid, worthless. Poverty was always at the door in spite of the father's job.

"A's" parents on the other hand had been unable to bear children and had adopted her. She was the chosen child. Valued. Well taken care of. Taken to church not sent. Dressed in clothing that spoke of how much love her parents had for her. She was disciplined in love and never abused. She never knew deprivation.

If as you say, free will "logically" leads one to suspect that one person has within themselves something more than another that leads them to accept where another would not, you'd certainly expect that A would be the one to accept Christ's sacrifice. She had all the advantages to that end. She was taught from babyhood about Christ. She had role models that were true Christians, that loved the Lord with all their heart. Surely this child would eagerly follow her parents and loved ones' example.

Only she didn't. Has not to this day. She doesn't even pretend anymore.

On the other hand, somewhere R heard the message of Christ and even in the depths of her miserable existance, she accepted and her life was literally transformed from inside to outside.

The one that should have been hard, was soft. And the one that should have been easy, was hard.

You would say the difference is that God regenerated the first and not the second. But the Bible says that the children of a Christian are holy. (1 Cor 7:14) So how can that be? How does a child that is called holy by God resist the calling of the Holy Spirit?


When God created this earth he gave Adam the choice of obedience or disobedience. He explained the rule, the consequences, and saw to it that Adam had everything he needed both to sustain him physically and spiritually. Adam at this time had no predisposition toward evil. Remember, God had created him in His own image. After this, God left his creation unsupervised. Adam wasn't a child. He had everything he needed to make a good decision and even started from the position of desiring good rather than evil, yet he choose to disobey rather than let God solve the problem of Eve's deception.

Now, what was the punishment? Was it that mankind would lose its freewill? You would say so, but just a few "minutes" later God tells Cain that he has it within his power to bring a sacrifice that was pleasing. If Cain could chose to come, where did we lose freewill? Where did God stop allowing man to chose Him or die?

Just like God provided Adam everything he needed to sustain life both physically and spiritually, including the choice to obey or not, He has also provided for us. The fact that those provisions are different, doesn't change the fact that we have them available if only we will make use of them. My sig passage says it all: God is not willing any should perish. The reason some do, is not because God failed to provide for them, but because they refuse to use that provision.

A refused the urging of the Holy Spirit because she wanted "something different". Following Christ wasn't nearly as cool as becoming a model and drinking with her friends on the weekend.

R, on the other hand, found no pleasure in those things even though they were certainly available. She also wanted "something different". Her perspective on what different meant was radically changed when she heard the story of Christ and believed.

There is no next step. The difference between Jack and John, between R and A, is determined by their own wills.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

...Bob

 

Thank you for taking the time to write such a wonderful illustration. And thank you for often being a "limiting agent" in these sometimes heated discussions of views. You are the control rods in the nuclear reactor.

 

Menagerie, that was excellent; and I'm afraid that what I'm about to say will detract from it, so please forgive me in advance.

When I see these conversations, I am often reminded of the movie "Patton" with George C. Scott; specifically, the scene where Gen Patton is standing on a hillside, watching the German forces advance; and suddenly says, "Rommel, you magnificent _, I read your book!"

It's not a good analogy; no analogy is. However, it's indicative of what's happening. God knows the ending; we have free will, but God works all things towards the finale of the plan. Look at Job; God allowed Satan to take away Job's family, his possessions, and to do horrible things to Job himself; through it all, Job never knew that it wasn't God doing these things to him, and his friends certainly thought it was God's handiwork. Yet, even though he could have, and most folks wouldn't have blamed him, Job never denied God.

Again, Menagerie, your story is excellent; I hope that I haven't diminished it in any way.

 

Nice emotionally charged story, of which emotion I will not allow to detract from the fact that salvation and choosing is not of us.

Romans 9:16 says it is not of us. It actually shows us it is definitely not because we chose. Not to him that willeth, or that is, determines, or chooses it, but it is of Him that calleth.

God shews mercy to whom He will. Look at the context.

Of course we would all assume the other girl would have decided to walk with God. Our reason doesn't dictate Sovereign will. It is not based on our finite understanding, God showed His mercy on the one, the other doesn't look like that has happened. It could happen later, who knows? But this is showing us God is in charge of this, not our reason, and not our choosing.

I don't believe the story concerning Cain proves we have free will. But I am going to look into that.

I just feel like if someone paints an emotional sympathetic picture to illustrate something then they feel that all of those emotional feelings it lends then makes the assumption true, and Biblical. A fuzzy feeling does not mean it is Biblically accurate.

I refer back to Romans 9:16, and its context.

I don't believe the interpretation of the story above is Biblically accurate whatsoever. I look at it in light of what God has said concerning whom He chooses, not at all as to what some person chooses. Salvation is all of Him.

I just think it is dangerous to use a story, and say "true story" as if that makes it then Biblically accurate, and our interpretation of if Biblically accurate, because it is a "true story."