Are all of God's Ten Commandments still valid?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 24, 2014.

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  1. BobRyan

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    Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


    Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


    1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
    2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
    3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
    4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
    5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
    6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
    7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

    I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

    ================================
    Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

    10 Commandments are –
    Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
    “Law of God” Neh 10:29
    “Word of God” Mark 7:13
    “Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
    NT “Scripture” James 2:8
    NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
    NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

    Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments
    are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

    ==========================================================
    Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

    1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
    2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
    3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
    4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
    5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
    6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
    7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
    8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
    9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
    10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
    11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
    12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

    --------------------------

    From another web site

    --
    #297 (Baptist Confession of Faith)

    #13 (D.L. Moody)
     
  2. Jordan Kurecki

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    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
     
  3. TrevorL

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    Greetings BobRyan,

    Jesus is the true Sabbath:
    Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    Also a careful consideration of Hebrews 4 expands the true understanding of the Sabbath question, showing that the true rest and the subject of the Sabbath is much wider than the narrow constrict imposed by the SDAs. I do not believe in “Sunday keeping” and this expression is used by SDAs to add weight and justify their position. The question is not the Seventh Day versus the "pro Sunday" advocates.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  4. Salty

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    Here we go again......................................
     
  5. JamesL

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    The whole premise of the OP is flawed.

    You know how many commandments we're "obligated to observe" ? TWO

    1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength
    2) Love your neighbor as yourself

    Romans 14:10 love filfills the Law



    2Corinthians 3:2-18 - The covenant chiseled in stone is the ministry of DEATH

    Your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. How is that? By the Spirit.. Through the washing of regeneration.

    LITERAL righteousness, in the inner man. Not a facade of righteousness obtained through the Law

    You must be born again
     
  6. Salty

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    Bob Ryan -
    Are you asking to seriously seek the truth
    or are you trying to influence your SDA doctrine here on BB?
     
  7. plain_n_simple

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    In agreement
     
  8. JonC

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    I don’t believe that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God, but that they are commands to Israel under the Old Covenant that represent the moral law of God. They are applicable to believers in that they are fulfilled if one obediently in Christ loves God with all of their heart, soul and strength…and their neighbors as themselves.
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    All for whom Christ lived and died for has through Him kept /obeyed the Commandments of God the way God intended by man, and so they are made righteous before God Rom 5:19 ! :)
     
  10. BobRyan

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    I don't believe either D.L. Moody or C.H. Spurgeon were SDA - yet they could honestly admit to some Bible details that some here claim only SDAs could know about.

    For example --

    BY THE
    DWIGHT L. MOODY
    The Ten Commandments:
    Exodus 20:2-17
    .
    The Fourth Commandment

    Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

    [FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.
    How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; [/FONT] __________________


    Now let's compare that to the statement in the OP

    Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


    Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


    1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
    2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
    3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
    4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
    5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
    6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
    7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

    I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

    ================================
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Now let's compare those same 7 points with C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" --
    [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    “The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

    Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

    Section 19
    . The Law of God

    • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.


    • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.


    • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.


    • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.


    • The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

     
  12. BobRyan

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    In defense of D.L. Moody's statement, and the Baptist Confession of Faith and C.H Spurgeon's statements to the contrary ... I would ask this - which of those two commandments is Christ quoting in Mark 7:6-13?

    Which of those two does Paul quote in Eph 6:1-2?

    Which of those is quoted in 1Cor 6:5-10??

    In Matt 22 Christ quotes them both - as coming from the Law of Moses - Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- which of the TEN Commandments were deleted before the cross at the time of Matt 22?

    James 2 - James argues that to break even one of the TEN Commandments is to breaking them all - on what basis does he make that argument?

    8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Dec 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2014
  13. Yeshua1

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    Were you justified before God by the keeping of the law in your flesh, or by just receiving the justification by faith on your behalf that death of jesus provided for all who were to get saved?

    paul in Galatians already has answered your OP for you!
     
  14. Salty

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    Actually, I was just seeking a one sentence answer.
    So I see your answer is "to influence SDA doctrine to BB members"
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


    1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
    2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
    3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
    4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
    5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
    6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
    7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

    I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

    ===========================================

    As we see here --

    BY THE
    DWIGHT L. MOODY
    The Ten Commandments:
    Exodus 20:2-17
    .
    The Fourth Commandment

    Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

    [FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.
    How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; [/FONT] __________________


    Now let's compare that to the statement in the OP

     
  16. BobRyan

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    I think Spurgeon Gets a number of the details right - as does Matthew Henrey and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" when it comes to the TEN Commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant just as we are told in both Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8.

    But then - that would be sola scriptura - and I can appreciate that everyone may not be comfortable with that.
     
  17. JamesL

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    Doesn't matter if you can find support from men. Protestants can't even see regeneration from a biblical viewpoint, so why would anybody expect them to see the difference between the covenants?

    What are your comments on the ministry of death, chiseled in stone?
     
  18. BobRyan

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    In Heb 8 the "Law of God" as defined in Jer 31:31-33 from which it is quoted is "written on the heart".

    In 1Cor 3 the Law of God external - merely on stone - is the "ministry of death" because as Paul said in Romans 3 the law of God still valid still binding, still in authority - declares all of fallen humanity to be in violation, in need of a Savior - and headed for the 'wages of sin" Rom 6:23 which is the 2nd death - described in Rev 20.

    This fits perfectly with the statements on the continued moral law of God as outlined in the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and in D.L. Moody's sermon, and the comments of Matthew Henry and ...
     
  19. JamesL

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    the 2 questions which must be answered are:

    1) what does it mean that the law of God is written on our hearts?

    2) how does God write his laws on our hearts?

    Read the entirety of 6:13-11:40. Christ has made the first covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13). Paul also said the Christ abolished the Law with its commandments and ordinances (Eph 2:15), and that the old covenant has been set aside (2Cor 3:11)

    Hebrews 10:14 tells us that Jesus Christ has FOREVER PERFECTED those who are sanctified. His blood REMOVES sin, which is something the blood of bulls and goats could never do (Heb 10:11), and that the Law was a shadow of things to come.

    Heb 8:1 quotes the prophecy " the days are coming when I will establish a new covenant....will write My laws on the hearts."

    We are also told of these days that are coming "I will pour out My Spirit"

    Righteousness comes from being washed by the blood of Christ, not by observing the Law.


    Ok, so why are you preaching the external Law to those who profess Christ as Lord?

    You're trying to tie a millstone around their necks. You esteem one day above the others, you are a weaker brother according to Paul in Romans 14. You are obligated by scripture to wallow in your weakness by yourself, not to try to shipwreck the faith of those who understand liberty in Christ.

    BTW, it's 2Corinthians 3, not 1Corinthians 3



    WRONG !!
    Romans 6 is in the context of PHYSICAL death, a continuation of the previous chapter, which begins "HAVING BEEN justified"


    So what ??

    They were as wrong as you are

    1Timothy 1:9
    The Law is NOT for the righteous, but for evildoers
     
  20. BobRyan

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    1. In Jer 31:31-33 the term "My Laws" did not exclude God's Ten Commandments as the NT authors demonstrate. Jer 31 is not a case where God is complaining that his Law said not to take His name in vain for example - and then re-thinking it as if that is not such a good law to have. God is finding a "better way" in Jer 31 to have His law obeyed - writing it in the heart.

    2. The question is "what Laws" are written on the heart - and Jeremiah helps with that question.

    3. The Bible in general helps with that question for NT authors refer to the

    Ten Commandments as "The Law of Liberty" James 2 by which all are judged

    and as 'The Word of God" Mark 7;6-13 that tests all doctrine and tradition "sola scriptura" according to Christ Himself.



    =============================

    Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

    10 Commandments are –
    Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
    “Law of God” Neh 10:29
    “Word of God” Mark 7:13
    “Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
    NT “Scripture” James 2:8
    NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
    NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

    Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments
    are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3
     
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