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are all sins really equal?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by deacon jd, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. ShotGunWillie

    ShotGunWillie New Member

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    My point is this:

    To everything there is a complete opposite, a heaven and a hell, there are also different degrees in heaven meaning, some will get there by Grace of God, but will have no rewards in heaven, no crowns, no other reward. So why would hell not have different degrees. If our God be a just God, would our just God not create a more severe punishment for others.
     
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    So you're saying that Dante may have had a point with his Divine Comedy?
     
  3. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    This could be true but I believe there is an age of accountability and a period when a baby lives in innocence. Yes, a sinful nature but innocent which is part of my interpretation of "suffer the children... of such is the kingdom of heaven". I know I have no scripture to support my belief but I refuse to believe a Just God would send babies soul to hell.
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I had a friend who joked saying that all marines go to heaven because they haven't reached the "age of accountability" yet.

    As far as Just it depends on what you mean. I'm not saying God sends babies to hell but I think that if mankind is by nature evil and a blight on righteousness and all that God sees as good then it might be a possibility. I'm just playing with thoughts now. So don't take this as a possitional statement. First of all I think that humanity without Christ is insane and cannot think clearly. Only when the person is filled with the Holy Spirit can clarity of thought and perseption be achieved and even then as Paul says though a glass darkly. Rats by nature spread disease such as the bubonic plague we have no problem killing infant rats. I'm not trying to compare Men to Rats but if we are sinful and insane it might be a Just result. In the end we are decendents of Adam and face the consequences of our nature. So how do you percieve Just or Fair or Good?
     
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    There is this thing about hell that Im afraid of more than the burning, wheeping, and nashing of teeth. That is the absence of my Lord. It's the one place where if we wind up there we will never have His blessings anymore. We will never have His rest and we will not have anyone we can call on for help. We will be totaly alone. A loneliness so final so complete is far worse than being beaten or being burned alive. Loneliness of that kind is unbearable. Regardless if there are levels in hell where some places are better than others everyone in hell will be completely alone. There are no pleasures in hell. The most unbearable thing I can think of is being with out the love of another. With out the love of God.

    Why aim for the better places in hell when you can be with Christ in eternity.
    MB
     
  6. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    By "we" does that mean you're including yourself in that? I have no concern about hell since I have been forgiven and given ETERNAL LIFE! Not temporary life until I sin again, but ETERNAL! My desire is not to please myself but to please my Lord and Saviour.
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I am wondering what you mean here. It's not that some sins send people to hell and others don't; what people go to hell for is not being redeemed through faith in Christ. It doesn't matter what sins one has committed - faith in Christ saves from all sin.

    The unpardonable sin involves not believing in Christ, and no believer can commit that. Also, some think this could only be committed by those who witnessed Christ's miracles but denied who he was.
     
  8. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    But there are examples in the NT where believers were removed, which Ktn4eg gave. Also, check out 1 Cor 11 where Paul writes that due to the way believers dishonored the Lord's Supper, many were "sick" and many are "now sleep" (i.e., are dead). This was a reference to believers.

    So there are some sins that God did remove believers from this life for, at least as recorded in the Bible. Whether that happens now or not is hard to say, but it certainly is possible.
     
  9. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Sorry, Marcia, I can't go there. It sounds like you are saying that faith in Christ results in forgiveness of all sins--past, present and future--and once you are saved there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation. Eternal security is a myth concocted by Augustine and, more than 1000 years later, promulgated as doctrine by Calvin. It is unscriptural and I fear that many of its adherents will wake up in Hell, surprised that they could be there.

    I do agree that the only unpardonable sin is not believing in Christ. However, when we Christians sin we must repent and seek forgiveness as stated in 1 John 1:9 because future sins were not forgiven at the time we were saved.

    I know I am in a very small minority of Baptists who believe this way but I have studied this issue seriously for about 25 years and I remain convinced that the Bible does not teach eternal security. I would like to do a debate but I don't have time right now, and besides this is the wrong thread. So we will have to agree to disagree on this point, i.e., whether some sins will send you straight to Hell if you should die with them unforgiven.
     
  10. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Yes, that is why I qualified my statement with the phrase "except in rare circumstances."
     
  11. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    Eternal security is a fact, which is why what we have is called ETERNAL life and not temporary life. If we're saved, our desire will be to become what God wants us to be. That, unfortunately, is a lifelong process and doesn't happen immediately. Still, even though we still have our sin nature, there should be a noticeable change in us. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." 2 Cor. 5:17

    We are forgiven of ALL sins when are saved. If we sin after we're saved and don't confess them, we will lose fellowship and blessings but NOT our salvation. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27,28. Note, it says ETERNAL and not temporary until our next sin.

    We are secure in Jesus Christ and sealed by the holy Spirit. "Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

    If we are born again, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit Who dwells within us, and He has promised that He will NEVER leave us. Hebrews 13:5
     
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Actually men looking to go to hell will eventually wind up there don't you think? If your desire is to please the Lord as you say. Then how well do you think your remarks to me will please Him?
    MB
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I don't think most people that end up in hell even believe in it. Or if they do, they think they will please God by good works.

    Although one time I had an encounter in New Orleans (before Katrina) with a man who tried to read my palm. I told him I used to be an astrologer and did not want the palm reading, that God was against it. He asked me where in the Bible that was and I told him the main passage, Deut. 18.10-12 (palm reading is divination). I was very low-key and noncondemning as I said this, trying to use it as an opportunity to possibly witness to him.

    At this point he became enraged and stalked away, shouting at me over his shoulder as he left, "If that's who your God is, then I'd rather go to hell!!"

    It was a very dramatic and sobering encounter.
     
  14. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg New Member

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    You are, my friend Zenas, certainly entitled to your opinion about this issue.

    In my particular case, I simply cannot hold to the view that a truly born again child of God can by any of his own actions (or lack thereof) lose his eternal salvation and find himself in Hell.

    John 6:37 -- "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

    John 10:27-29 -- "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

    Isaiah 49:15-16 -- "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me."

    Ephesians 1:13-14 -- "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

    Acts 13:48 -- "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

    Hebrews 7:25 -- "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

    Jeremiah 31:3 -- "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee."

    Romans 8:35-39 -- "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    Given these passages, for some reason I tend to believe that the God who loved His child with an everlasting (i.e., it had no begining, nor does it have an ending) love; and, therefore, took the initiative in that child's salvation is just a wee bit more powerful than the mere mortal that I, His child, am in securing my eternal destiny.

    Even if I should wish to try to lose my eternal salvation (which, of course, I personally am not about to even begin to launch out on such an obviously futile effort), I fail to see how that I would be successful in being able to:
    1) Remove myself first of all from Christ's hands; then
    2) Unengrave myself from God the Father's palms; then
    3) Unseal myself from the Holy Spirit's sealing; then
    4) Jump out of God the Father's hands; and then
    5) Successfully complete that downward voyage which has as its final destiny Hell itself!

    I'm inclined to believe that you may possibly be confused about a truly saved person's STANDING in God's eyes and a truly saved person's STATE in God's eyes.

    There is a difference, my friend, between a truly born again child of God's degree of orlevel of fellowship that he may have with God at any given moment and that same truly born again child of God's relationship with his Father.

    While fully realizing human comparisons will break down at some point, let's say that immediately after my daddy told me in no uncertain terms not to touch even one cookie from the cookie jar without first securing his approval I proceed to stuff myself silly with every last cookie that's in said cookie jar.

    Immediately after taking the last bite of said cookies, in walks my daddy, licking his chops in anticipating comsuming some of the cookies he just knew would be in the cookie jar.

    You know, at the moment our eyes meet, having a lengthy, one-on-one interaction with dear old dad just didn't suddenly become priority one on my to-do list.

    What happened?

    Well, you might say that the quality of our fellowship one with another at that moment has been somewhat diminished.

    But, has my relationship to my father changed?

    Am I now, no longer his child?

    Now, daddy may choose to implement some program of disciplinary activity for me, but he's still my father.

    He may choose to ban me from the family homestead, stratch me completely out of his last will and testament, and tell me that he never wants to look upon my countenance again in this life.

    He could do all of that and maybe even more, but when the final results of the DNA sampling and comparisons are completed, the findings will still be the same--He is my father, and I am his son.

    As I wrote at the begining of this post, you are entitled to your opinion on this matter.

    I would, however, based on just the verses I've quoted for you in this post, enjoy your thoroughly disproving my conclusions on this matter that I made in my previous post
     
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