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Are Arminians Saved?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by rlvaughn, Nov 29, 2001.

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  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Yep, I knew that would get your attention. Actually, I ran across this curious brand of "Calvinism" on a website called Outside the Camp. I have never heard before those who believe the Doctrines of Grace (commonly called TULIP or Calvinism) express the idea that Arminians (as a group) are not saved. I am wondering if any here take that position, or if you have ever heard others take such a position. Looking over the site, they seem to come to an odd position that turns their own doctrine on its head and sounds more like works for salvation than grace!

    From: THREE REASONS WHY ARMINIANS ARE NOT SAVED by Christopher Adams

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One of the most important issues faced by those who profess to believe the doctrines of grace (commonly called "Calvinism") is how to relate to professing Christians who reject the doctrines of grace. Should they be approached as brothers in Christ? Should we take their "conversion experience" at face value? In answering these questions, the writer would like to submit the following "Three Reasons Why Arminians Are Not Saved".

    Reason Number One: Arminians are not saved because they worship an idol. By an idol, I mean "a god who cannot save."...Arminians have fashioned a god in their own image. They are no more saved than the Jews who had done exactly the same thing.

    Reason Number Two: Arminians are not saved because they do not believe the truth. This is related to the previous reason but has more to do with the evidence of a person's salvation.

    Any Calvinist who defends the salvation of Arminians must explain 2 Thessalonians 2:12, which says, "That they all might be damned who believe not the truth ..."...Again, a saved sinner may not necessarily use all the same words that I have used here, but he will never believe the opposite of these doctrines, nor will he ever oppose them when confronted with them (1 Cor 2:12).

    Reason Number Three: Arminians are not saved because they hate the truth. This reason also has more to do with the evidence of a person's salvation...

    The very fact that there is any debate over this issue indicates that the majority of professing Calvinist churches are not true churches at all.

    The fact that Arminians are unsaved also leads us to a few conclusions:

    1. We must not fellowship with Arminians...
    2. We must treat them as unsaved...
    3. We must be willing to exercise church discipline on those who turn out to be Arminians or consider Arminians to be their brothers in Christ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    These people seem to come to the conclusion that even "Calvinists" who think "Arminians" are saved, are not themselves children of God. Any one ever heard of such a belief/religion?

    P.S. I debated whether to put this here or on the "Other Religions" forum. Since much Calvinism/Arminianism debate is going on among Baptists on this board, I chose to put it here. MODERATOR, if you think better, we could move it to the "Other Religions" forum.

    [ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
    #1 rlvaughn, Nov 29, 2001
  2. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    Robert:

    Outside the camp is the most insidious form of hyper-Calvinism - which is to be distinguished from true, Biblical Calvinism.

    Unfortunately, many Arminians cannot (or will not) make that distinction, as has been seen on the Theology Board.
     
    #2 Chris Temple, Nov 29, 2001
  3. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    OUTSIDE THE CAMP is a hardshell group that if I am not mistaken attacks Calvinists such as Spurgeon and Thomas Boston. Their views are cultic hardshellism but certaintly not Calvinist.

    [ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
     
    #3 Kiffin, Nov 29, 2001
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Probably like Calvinists -- some are and some aren't.

    At least if Arminians are not saved, they have no one to blame but themselves [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #4 Pastor Larry, Nov 29, 2001
  5. Brian

    Brian New Member

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    Looks like if you're not one of them you're lost as Moodys goose. [​IMG]
     
    #5 Brian, Nov 29, 2001
  6. Larry

    Larry Member
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    It would depend on what gospel they heard and believed. Repeat this prayer, be baptized, jump in and hang on, take communion, rub your head and pat your belly? There are a lot of wacky gospels out there. I don’t know a lot of Calvinists but the ones I do know preach the Biblical Gospel—Repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 1:8-9
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
     
    #6 Larry, Nov 29, 2001
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    You are correct, Larry. A lot of what goes on in Baptist churches as "doctrine" are a reproach to God.

    As to the condemnation of Arminians, Calvinists, Armenians, RC, Hindu . . .<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Anyone who "worships an idol" is not saved.<LI>Anyone who "does not believe the truth" is not saved<LI>Anyone who hates the truth is not saved[/list]
     
    #7 Dr. Bob, Nov 30, 2001
  8. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    If I am understanding this group correctly, they are saying that one being an Arminian proves that one is unsaved. And I think to them an Arminian is one who does not accept the five points of Calvinism AS THEY see it. They are not saying some among the arminians are not children of God, but that ALL of them aren't.

    Kiffin, they do condemn Boston and Spurgeon, as well as John Murray, Chalmers, Packer, Bonar, Berkhof, Boettner, both Hodges, and John Reisinger in their "Heterodoxy Hall of Shame". [At least they did take some potshots at Robert Schuller and Billy Graham
    :D ]

    Does anyone know if these people are affiliated with any denominational group? And doesn't their position actually come back to "Arminianism" in that salvation is based on what you do and say rather than the Sovereign Grace of God?
     
    #8 rlvaughn, Nov 30, 2001
  9. Chick Daniels

    Chick Daniels Member

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    Speaking as a Calvinist, I must say that one of the ways that God has chosen to display His amazing saving grace is to elect people who will live their whole lives believing they were responsible for choosing God. The disciples may have thought that they had chosen to follow Jesus until He told them flatly, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Just because someone is confused as to who does the choosing does not mean that One doing the saving is powerless to save. God elects who He wills--even those that He, in His wisdom, determines they live their lives confused on this issue.
     
    #9 Chick Daniels, Nov 30, 2001
  10. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    rlvaughn said, on "Outside the Camp":

    If I am understanding this group correctly, they are saying that one being an Arminian proves that one is unsaved.

    With the OtC people it goes farther than that! The honoured inductees into their "Heterodoxy Hall of Shame" are, IIRC, all Calvinists themselves - their egregious heresy is believing that some of God's elect might believe the wrong ordo salutis.
     
    #10 Ransom, Nov 30, 2001
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It's OK , they (Arminians) get even by claiming that we (Once Saved Always Saved) are "lawless" spending our lives in sin and debauchery.

    HankD
     
    #11 HankD, Nov 30, 2001
  12. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    Would't arminianism be a works salvation? If you can lose it you have to do something to get it back and that leaves out Christ. Gal 2:21 I do * not frustrate * the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead * in vain.
     
    #12 Ps104_33, Dec 8, 2001
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I guess they are saved the same way the rest of us sinners are saved by the grace of God.
    The last time a checked I was still a sinner.
    Now have you brethren had a change? Do you still consider yourself a sinner?
    Apostle Paul said this is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
    I'll stick with Paul and claim to be a sinner and not be ashamed of it, for if I'm not then Jesus Christ did not die for me.
    Aren't Arminians saved just like the rest of us?... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
    #13 tyndale1946, Dec 8, 2001
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Brother Glen (tyndale) - Yes, Arminians are saved exactly the same way everyone else is.<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>God chose them before the foundation of the world<LI>Christ died and took away their sin<LI>The Spirit regenerated them so they could have faith and repentance<LI>They called on the Lord to be saved<LI>The triune Godhead, that DID everything for salvation, has promised to keep them for ever no matter what[/list]So THEY emphasize the action "they called on the Lord to be saved" and think, mistakenly, that THEY did something as part of salvation.

    Of course they are in error, but they are our brethren and should be carefully taught the Sovereignty of God.

    Trust that this new Forum on the BB will help in that matter.
     
    #14 Dr. Bob, Dec 9, 2001
  15. garpier

    garpier New Member

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    All of this reminds me of something Dr Rembert B. Carter told us years ago while I was in college: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Baptists are like Catholics, they make good Christians once they get saved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I suppose the same would be true of Arminians and Calvinists.

    BTW Dr Carter was (and I suppose still is) a strong Calvinist.

    Gary
     
    #15 garpier, Dec 9, 2001
  16. free_wheeler

    free_wheeler New Member

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    Hi Dr.Bob:

    Curious that God is so effectual in their (Arminian's) salvation and yet so impotent in their formulation of doctrine. (Tongue firmly in cheek)
     
    #16 free_wheeler, Dec 10, 2001
  17. Brian

    Brian New Member

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    What I truly don't understand about Arminism is how they explain John ch 10. Which starts out whith the sheep in the fold ect and ends with where no man (including ourselves) can pluck them out His Fathers hand. There are other verses about eternal security but John ch10 always sewed it up for me.
     
    #17 Brian, Dec 11, 2001
  18. trueliberty

    trueliberty New Member

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    Brian, eternal security is a different kettle of fish from the other Calvinistic doctrines.

    Two issues here: the believer predestinated to sanctification and glorification with Christ based on God's promise-- and an unbeliever predestinated to believe because God chose him. The first is eternal security, certainly taught in John 10 also Romans 8 etc. , and the second is sovereign grace.
     
    #18 trueliberty, Dec 11, 2001
  19. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    What I don't get is people defining their own salvation. The elect is the elect, the problem is we don't get to decide who the elect is. The Bible says to judge the elect by their fruits. Even Jesus tells us to judge by the fruits. Most Calvinists call fruits works. :eek:
     
    #19 Eladar, Dec 11, 2001
  20. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The God-hating revivalist Dwight L. Moody preached a god who loves everyone ("He loves you and gave Himself up for you. Can you give a reason for hating Him?"), a god who wants to save everyone ("He wants you to come, and if you come you can drink... and a god who is knocking at the door of everyone's heart and pleading for acceptance
    Any true believer will easily see the heresy in such words. If you read Moody's sermons, you will see that these are common themes. Clearly, this is blasphemy. Clearly, this shows that Moody was an agent of Satan.

    If this is so clear, then why is it that when Moody came to Great Britain, many who claimed to be Calvinists promoted and defended Moody and his revivals? (Charles Spurgeon had this blasphemer speak from his pulpit and even preached an entire sermon in defense of Moody.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This figures, just like the hyper-hyper extremes of every other "ism" working under the banner of evangelical Christianity.-- PEter Ruckman (KJV controversy) Terry Watkins (CCM controversy), the person who broke from Biblical Discernment ministries because they still regarded the evangelical leaders they condemned, and anyone who fellowshipped with them as saved.
    This site's position is the logical conclusion oif much of the anti-Arminian rhetoric nearly all Calvinists employ-- that they believe in some "weak" "god" who is "powerless" to act without man's consent, and that it is "another gospel". If all of that is true, then these people are right, because another gospel and a powerless "god" cannot save. Yet these are all distorted caricatures of Arminianism-- all because they don't believe God doubly predestinates the lost to Hell. They still make up their own philosophical interpretations of what the Arminian conclusion and implications of Biblicl statements, (If God does not predestine to Hell, He is a false, powerless "god") and on a straw man are these assumptions built. People like this are going to have alot of answering to do when they stand before Him, and all of these arguments melt away.Predestination
     
    #20 Eric B, Dec 14, 2001
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