Are babies elect??

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by JonathanDT, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. JonathanDT

    JonathanDT
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    Hi, first post on the Calvinism board. I'm not looking for a debate, just a simple answer from Calvinists.

    Where do babies go when they die? Are they all elect, thus all go to heaven? How is this affected by the age of accountability? What about retarded people?
     
  2. KenH

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    All babies go to heaven. All retarded people go to heaven. The age of accountability starts at conception.
     
  3. stubbornkelly

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    Okay, can you explain that seeming oxymoron?
     
  4. Frogman

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    The first thing to note is that the Scripture does not speak of an 'age of accountability.' But the scripture makes all to be accountable.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    I'm not a Calvinist, of course. Scripture is silent on the issue. David believed that he would see his dead baby again, though.

    Personally, from what I understand about the mercy of God, babies and those who are unable to come to an understand of God for whatever developmental reason will be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb - as they have never had the chance to accept Christ.
     
  6. Frogman

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    There is a song we sing, though it is not scripture I think it relates a truth:

    The song: "The Love of God"

    The last stanza of this song was copied from the wall of a room in an insane asylum and incorporated into the song.

    Though I cannot explain how, I believe the power of God regenerates even those by social standards we decree to not possessing the ability to understand the things we preach and teach.
     
  7. JonathanDT

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    So while they're not really elect, they go to heaven anyway, do I got that right? Thanks for all your responses everyone.
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    This just shows the inabilty of Man... He has no control over his natural or spiritual birth... Show me a natural or spiritual babe in the Lord that ever birthed themselves?... Jesus said he came into the world to save All the Father gave him... Will he do it?... I don't worry about it because the promises of God are sure... He WILL save all his children just like he said he would?... He is a question to ponder... Will the babies be babies in heaven?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. Frogman

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    If I gave this impression please forgive me. I did not intend to do so. I do not believe any one above the number of the elect will be in heaven.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. Frogman

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    No. I don't believe they will be.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  11. Johnv

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    :confused: First, how can a baby be "accountable"? Second, where in the Bible does it talk about an "age" of accountability.

    My take on it is this:

    You become accountable when you've had an opportunity to accept Christ, and reject it. Babies and infirmed folks never have such an opportunity. Come to think of it, there are countless able adults in our own neighborhoods who have never had that oportunity.
     
  12. Aki

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    as far as i understand this quote, it made a shift of issue. the worry was whether babies will be saved. the answer was that God will surely save all His elects. the answer does not fit. are the babies elect then? sure God will save all the elect. are all babies then included?

    one issue here is that, if babies get condemned, then how was it just for them to be so, when in fact they did not have the volition to choose anything at all.

    it must be remembered that God will accept only those who possess perfect righteousness. otherwise, a soul is condemned.

    do babies possess God's righteousness? no. the moment they were born, they were imputed of the sin of Adam, that got them spiritually dead and therefore condemned. actually that's the purpose of it. God's purpose was to immediately put the baby into condemnation. God would not wait for the baby to commit his first sin to get him condemned.

    why? because of God's love. upon imputation of guilt and thus condemnation, God will be free to impute Christ's righteousness upon the child. imputation of righteousness, however, is determined from faith. but since faith is not an issue for babies, God imputing righteousness to them will not be injustice to God. God is free to do it. to those who can exercise their faith, God will respect their decision.

    the queation therefore is, will God impute righteousness to babies who die? David said his child is saved. the gospels said that the children are blessed because theirs is the kingdom of God. i think God saves babies - all of them.
     
  13. Istherenotacause

    Istherenotacause
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    So what's the purpose of election then?

    When does a person become elect?
     
  14. russell55

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    I think that most Calvinists who believe that all babies who die go to heaven don't think that they are elect because they die young, but rather that only elect babies are allowed by God to die young. Their election still comes before the foundation of the world, and those babies also have Christ's death applied to them, and Christ's obedience is counted as theirs.
     
  15. Istherenotacause

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    O.K., I understand the thinking on the ideal of "election" according to calvinism in regards to that, but I can't understand how it is when they are "elect" from before the foundations of the world, they are "begotten again" unto a lively hope as in I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

    I mean, if they are already begotten "elect" in Christ Jesus, why do they need to be "begotten again"?

    Seems to me by what Peter is saying, they weren't "elect" until having been "begotten again".

    Now I understand the "elect" are chosen before the foundations of the world, but the question still remains, when do they become elect? Seems Peter answers it by that being the point in time they are "begotten again" w/o trying to be redundant. It seems until they are born again, they were never elect, but it is chosen they who do get "born again" become the elect, not the elect get born again in that order.

    In His Holy Service,

    Brother Ricky
     
  16. russell55

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    The word elect means "chosen". So if they were chosen before the foundations of the world, then they became elect before the foundation of the world.

    The elect are chosen from the beginning for salvation, but they don't experience that salvation until they are begotten again--until they believe in the truth and they are sanctified by the Spirit. (2 Thes. 2:13)
     
  17. tyndale1946

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    The way I understand it and I may be wrong but the election guarantees they will be born again. The election is the order that is followed for all the blood bought grace wrought children of God. The foreknowledge of God comes first... I have loved thee with an everlasting love and with loving kindness have I drawn thee... Because of his great love he elected or predestinated in the halls of eternity where his elect would go before they were born or Adam created.

    They were elected according to his own will... purpose... and mercy before the world was formed. Does their doctrine save them?... No never did!... Does the article of faith or creeds of different denominations save them?... No never did!... Does the Law save them?... Go ask the Apostle Paul!... No never did!... Does Baptisism or sprinkling save them?... No never did!... Does the preaching save them?... No never did!... Elect are elect before being born again... Not born again to become elect... Even though we would like to believe so... There is order in God's election... The reason one is born again is because they are elect... Just ask Nicodemus!

    In the realm of Eternal Salvation the only thing that can possibly save any of Gods elect children is the shed blood of Jesus Christ. They have NOTHING to offer God for their Eternal Salvation... It is not bought!... It is FREE!... It is a GIFT!... From the GOD OF ALL GLORY... And HIS SON JESUS CHRIST!... They have it although they don't deserve it... It is AMAZING GRACE HOW SWEET THE SOUND... THAT SAVED A WRETCH LIKE ME!... Don't make the doctrine of election something that it is not... Are babies included in election?... As harsh as it may sound they are just as depraved as the rest of us but then God is God... And is a God of mercy!... If a baby can be saved so can a sinful sinner like me!... Like Apostle Paul declares... This is a saying worthy of all acceptation that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  18. Aki

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    and the non-elects were condemned according the imputation of Adam's sin, regardless of their volition.

    does the non-elects' personal sins condemn them? yes, but even though they do not commit any, they are still condemned due to the imputed sin/guilt. but practically they will sin, because they were also transmitted of the sin nature, which they did not decide to have but nevertheless was passed in them.

    the non-elects are condemned before committing their first sin! not get spiritually dead because they sin... but sin because they are spiritually dead since birth.

    and the only thing that got everyone condemned since birth is God's imputation of Adam's sin to everyone.

    and a born child personally did nothing to get condemned. his condemnation is not based on his personal volition.

    the non-elects need not do anything to deserve condemnation. they were unconditionally, and irrespective of their volition, made deserving for condemnation.

    it is amazing love that got God to impute Adam's sin to everyone, so that Christ's death will reach everyone! calvinists cannot say the same, but that God was sovereign to impute Adam's sin to everyone.

    not just they are depraved. they are made depraved, because God is God, and sovereign enough to impute Adam's sin to them, and get them born from a sin nature transmitting parents.

    i'm sorry i have to come in this manner. the focus was on God's mercy, how loving He is, and how Christ died for the elects. i'm just trying to give the same weight on the other side, where God sovereignly puts every born baby - elects and non-elects - under condemnation, regardless of their volition.
     
  19. Istherenotacause

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    Elect before being born again? That isn't what I Peter is saying.

    I Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2 Elect ( if one will notice, Peter is saying "he" is "elect", not the "strangers" scattered) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    "Sanctification" through the Spirit doesn't begin until salvation. Salvation is the point which one is born again.

    Election prior to salvation would disagree with Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ , being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world :
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    Now if "election" presents hope for salvation and "unto a lively hope" as described in IPeter 1:3, the Ephesians 2:12 is wrong, and in following, verse 13-15 are then wrong.

    It may be called hyper-calvinism, but to indictae that some are condemned with "no hope" therefore condemns the very elect, for they too were without hope at a previous time in their lives as described in Ephesians 2.

    Since the indication is that the elect are somehow preserved before salvationand the "non-elect" are not, then also I Corintians 6:9-11 would also be wrong.

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you : but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Now either there is something wrong with the ideal of election, as some try to persuade others to believe, or there is something wrong with Holy Ghost inspiration of the Word of God.

    W/O being able to particulary indicate the ones who portray this belief in the doctrine of election, I would have to conclude God is true; His Word is Truth, election prior to salvation does not exist, and election isn't until one is "begotten again".

    To simply deal with "foreknowledge" I believe, and rightly so, that God "knows" whosoever "will come" shall in no wise be "cast out".

    Also I believe, and rightly so, that predestination is not applied to the individual, but to the "plan" of salvation; that all who "will come" are "predestinated" to being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Then, and only then, is the individual "predestined". Predestination and election do not begin at or even before birth, but only at "rebirth"/ begotten again.

    Just sharing the Word in a more specific and clear way, not attempting to "argue" with anyone. [​IMG]

    In His Holy Service,

    Brother Ricky
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    ITNAC,

    You are confusing salvation with election. Election must take place prior to salvation because election is to salvation (2 Thess 2:13). Many people confuse these and leads to greater confusion.

    The santification of the Spirit in 1 Peter 1:2 is teh setting apart of the Spirit, or the effectual call to salvation that leads to belief in the truth that brings salvation. Do not confuse that with the santification that takes place after salvation in which we become more like Christ.

    Eph 2:12 has nothing to do with election, as is seen by the lack of the word being used. It assumes that election has taken place. It is possible to be elect and be without God and without hope.

    Election and predestination are always used of individuals. It is never used of a plan or a program when it is in reference to salvation.

    You are right that God is true. However, that contradicts your statement that election prior to salvation does not exist. God is the one who said he chose us before the foundation of the world. Unless you were saved before the foundation of hte world, then election exists before salvation. He says in 2 Thess 2:13 that he chose us from the beginning for salvation. That too comes before salvation because it is to salvation. So God is true and that makes the doctrine of election true. Priase God for it because without it no one would be saved.
     

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