Are babies elect??

Larry, I'm not confusing the two. Election prior to salvation presupposes hope, and the non-elect presupposes no hope. Presumption always leads to the possibility of error. Presuming that one is elect and being without hope of slavation is therefore a contradiction to the ideal of election.


II Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now why is it He had to call those whom He'd already "chosen"?

Larry I believe you have something about His choosing a little mixed up. The little word "to" salvation through sanctification is the key. The way you have described election being prior to salvation the verse would read "chosen you "in" salvation. "To" indictaes the process of His calling to salvation unto and through sanctification.

 

Election happened way back in eternity. Calling happens in time. And God uses means to save His children. Salvation has been accomplished by the finished work of Jesus Christ. Salvation is experienced in time through the successful work of the Holy Spirit.

 

But this is a 'sanctification' through or of the Spirit. This is then a separation and not a personal holiness that men may possess prior to being so separated of the Spirit to the beleif of the Truth.

God Bless
Bro.Dallas Eaton
Matt.27.25

 

I am not a Calvinist and I am not an Arminian. I am a Christian. (First time anyone used that line, huh.) I am just glad that it isn't up to this forum to decide. The Bible doesn't say and no amount of "my logic is better than your logic" is going to change that. Our babies will be taken care of way better than we ever could so leave them alone and quit beating each other up over nonexistent issues. If God Almighty didn't see fit to include the answer in His word then why should we try to force it into it. I am not saying we shouldn't be curious and discuss it but, you sure can't be strong willed and dogmatic about it.

Gen 18:25...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

Election happened way back in eternity. Calling happens in time. And God uses means to save His children. Salvation has been accomplished by the finished work of Jesus Christ. Salvation is experienced in time through the successful work of the Holy Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]Without just saying it is scriptural, and without taking said scripture out of context, show where election happened and when in eternity past.

Ere since by grace are ye saved, then how is it grace is limited and to whom. we know by Whom grace is imparted, and it is only by Him we are sanctified. Sanctification is beyond our control, but not without our submission to the Spirit's command. We who are saved become elect, only the elect are transformed into "new" creatures in Christ Jesus, (take note of the order : Christ, Jesus) and through sancticfication; we are objects of mercy, then become subjects of grace, and are sanctified and become prepared for heaven.

We then are the elements of the election of grace, experiencing mercy, instead of facing certain judgement. Now judgement is not averted, but mercy answers in our stead. That mercy extended to us through grace that elects, enclaves us as the remnant of that election of grace, but grace is not limited, and the One Who has that "unmerited favor" upon these vessels of mercy is neither limited, nor is He unjust.

The LORD will never, NEVER, have to be aquitted of the crime of sending a man to hell who has never been given opportunity to answer that call to repentence.

Do "elect", I use that term as quoted, babies repent? Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish". Is God therefore unjust to send babies to hell having neither done evil or good due to the sin nature imputed through our father Adam? Nay! I'd rather say He is JUST and has particualr mercy and grace to forgive that sin nature as that child is yet innocent of intentional sin, including ALL babies we consider elect or not. Those who are called in Isaac are the seed of promise, simply because Isaac is the seed of promise, a "type" of Jesus Christ "shadowed before His being manifest; Immanuel, Christ with us.

Yet election occurs at salvation, as I Peter so clearly shows, else how is sanctification begun?

That which a man attempts to separate himself is only the feeble efforts of the flesh, but that which the LORD separates is sanctified and fit for the Master's use. Holiness which is separation from worldliness is imparted only from God unto man. He no longer imputes sin after salvation, but then imputes the Righteousness which is of His Dear Son.

Works of the flesh are made manifest, and those works which are done by the man are in vain due to his being puffed up in his fleshly mind that he should boast, but that which is accomplished in that man by the Lord is that which brings honour and glory to Him. Those works are that of faith, which are not dead works.

I guess I'm just stedfast and immovable in this area of election as to when one is elected. "Can't teach an old dog new tricks", but then who is it being tricked?

 

I am not a Calvinist and I am not an Arminian. I am a Christian. (First time anyone used that line, huh.) I am just glad that it isn't up to this forum to decide. The Bible doesn't say and no amount of "my logic is better than your logic" is going to change that. Our babies will be taken care of way better than we ever could so leave them alone and quit beating each other up over nonexistent issues. If God Almighty didn't see fit to include the answer in His word then why should we try to force it into it. I am not saying we shouldn't be curious and discuss it but, you sure can't be strong willed and dogmatic about it.

Gen 18:25...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? </font>[/QUOTE]No, Artimaeus, you're not the first. I hold the "bragging rights" to that. I have said a few times before I am neither calvinist nor arminian. Yes I am a Christian, but I don't go around bragging about it.

I have been accused of being both though.

 

Ephesians 1 says God elected us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

2 Thessalonians 2 says we were elect from the beginning..

 

Ephesians 1 says God elected us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

2 Thessalonians 2 says we were elect from the beginning.. </font>[/QUOTE]Too many other elements referring to salvation to allow that being prior to it, else we were born saved already and God condones sin in all of us until we do get saved. If He does that then He would be unjust to put any man in hell for his disobedience to the Gospel.

 

It is quite clear from experience that every person(perhaps even most people) does not have an opportunity to come to Jesus in repentance and faith in this age as every person does not have the opportunity to hear the gospel preached.

God is not capable of committing a crime or a sin of any kind. Those who attempt to accuse God of such, even just in trying to make a theological point, should be extremely, extremely careful.

 

ITNAC,

You were given verses that explicitly refute your notion about election. What else can be said than what Paul already said through the inspiration of the Spirit?

Even your statement about shows your problemmatic understanding. When I said you were confusing salvation and election when you should see them as different, you said I was wrong, and then said that if election happened prior to salvation that we were born saved. That is simply not what the Bible teaches.

[ June 21, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Election is a secret decree of God. To presume that oneself is elect would be wrong. To presume that someone else is either elect or non-elect would likewise be wrong. This is irrelevant.

Because the call takes place through the Spirit working in the gospel message. Until someone is alive, that cannot take place.

So you think someone is saved by being sanctified after salvation?? Surely you jest. As I previously said, the setting apart referred to here is the effectual call of the Spirit in salvation and the obedience to the truth is the response to the command of the gospel message to repent and believe. This has nothing to do with sanctification after salvation. The little word "to" is the word eis ... it is a preposition with an accusative meaning "into, to; in, at, on, upon, by, near; among; against; concerning; as." The point is that your prepositional game doesn't work. Paul wrote eis. There is no difference between "in" and "to." If I chose to my team, then that would tell which side you were on. I don't even know what "choosing in" would mean. It is simply a semantic game to try to get around what the text says.

Elsewhere you say ...

First, I am not sure where the crime is and I am sure that we cannot or at least should not accuse God of committing a crime, no matter what he does and no matter what we think of it.

However, The Bible answers your question in Rom 1:20 when it says that all men are without excuse because they have seen and rejected God. You have injected your own thinking into this equation rather than simply believing what Scripture says. If the Bible says that all men are without exucse, then I think that is true.

 

The first part of that good news is -- Yes they "will"!

The "even better part" is "who Will raise them".

God so loved the "World" - that includes infants that die without choosing to do anything but live.

The Arminian difference from 4 and 5 point Calvinism could be stated as

"God so loved the World... Yes Really!".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Let's see if I understand you. These clear statements from scripture saying that God's choice (or election) occured before time began can't REALLY be saying that because that wouldn't fit with some preconcieved notion you have about election and salvation being the same thing.

See....there you go. Being born elect doesn't mean you are born saved. What it means it that at some point in your life you will come to salvation. Election and salvation are two different things.

No. Even the elect remain children of God's wrath until they are made atlive together with Him. Up until the time that they believe, the sins of the elect remain accounted to them, and the elect remain under the sentence of death because of those sins. When the elect believe, those sins are erased from their account, and Christ's righteousness is counted for their own. It is then that the sentence of death is removed, it is then that they are no longer children of God's wrath, it is then that they are transfrerred from Satan's kingdom to Christ's kingdom.

Remember election is not salvation

Well, since God doesn't ever condone sin, not even in the elect, I guess God's spared your accusations that He's unjust.

 

It is quite clear from experience that every person(perhaps even most people) does not have an opportunity to come to Jesus in repentance and faith in this age as every person does not have the opportunity to hear the gospel preached.

God is not capable of committing a crime or a sin of any kind. Those who attempt to accuse God of such, even just in trying to make a theological point, should be extremely, extremely careful. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly, so the express need for missionaries.

Oh, and I'm not the one who attempts to accuse God of anything, but it is the fallen nature of a man that does it, just ask Cain,"Am I my brother's keeper?"

Now the question arises, if God is just, and He is, then does He not give every man the chance to hear the Gospel, giving opportunity to hear and belive it? Even the devils believe the Word of God and tremble at it. So does God allow the devils to hear something that He doesn't allow every man to hear as well? By that definition, God would have respect of devils over men. The Gospel is not a curse that delegates eternity gained or lost due to the opportunity or inopportunity to hear. Gods still hath "lightened" every man at some point in time.

Simple logic can tell us that. It's time we come together with God and reason these things out instead of having our dogma delegate the actions of the Lord. You cannot put God in the "box" and expect Him to obey you and stay in it!

In His Holy Service,

Brother Ricky

 

So then some of the "elect" are then lost and go to hell?

The "precious and elect" are the saved, you cannot separate the two as you have done. John was speaking to saved people in the Epsitles of John and so was Peter. The elect are the saved, not the saved were elect before they were saved.

 

Sorry, but you are the one trying to put God in a "box" and limiting His salvation program , not me.

 

Let's see if I understand you. These clear statements from scripture saying that God's choice (or election) occured before time began can't REALLY be saying that because that wouldn't fit with some preconcieved notion you have about election and salvation being the same thing.

See....there you go. Being born elect doesn't mean you are born saved. What it means it that at some point in your life you will come to salvation. Election and salvation are two different things.

No. Even the elect remain children of God's wrath until they are made atlive together with Him. Up until the time that they believe, the sins of the elect remain accounted to them, and the elect remain under the sentence of death because of those sins. When the elect believe, those sins are erased from their account, and Christ's righteousness is counted for their own. It is then that the sentence of death is removed, it is then that they are no longer children of God's wrath, it is then that they are transfrerred from Satan's kingdom to Christ's kingdom.

Remember election is not salvation

Well, since God doesn't ever condone sin, not even in the elect, I guess God's spared your accusations that He's unjust. </font>[/QUOTE]Just one statement russel55, "God is no respecter of persons" that blows your theology and the rest of the "elective" theologians away!

I NEVER said God is unjust, all I did was say that by some's thinking they could bring accusation against God just as Cain did. People accuse God all the time, BUT He in NEVER guilty! So don't make Him guilty of respect of persons by saying He "elects" some and others aren't elect. That's what the gross misconduct of the "election" theology does.

The elect are the saved, yes they are the chosen of God, but that is only due to their belief and repentence.

Not to get too far off topic, but faith is not the "seed" which is "planted" deep within the soul, but the Word is the Seed which is palnted in the soul to increase faith unto belief. In other words the atheist is right in the perspective that faith has to be taught, faiht then must be received. The notion that election being prior to salvation indicates that faith is planted within the soul at or prior to birth. Sir, and Larry, "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God!"

The problem isn't with the seed, it's with the ground. Even the stoniest ground can be tilled until it becomes fertile enough to receive and keep the seed and nuture it to produce fruit.

This "yen/yang" theology of election being prior to salvation is ludricrous! It's birthed out of pagan beliefs relating to the oriental thinking of Buddism and Confusionism.

For those who are uninformed about the "yen" and the "yang", it's that thinking evil is present even as a little speck in that which appears perfectly good, and a spark of good is present in everything that is definitely evil, thus the white dot in the black "tadpole" and the black dot in the white, ever encircled in the realm of time.

Everywhere you find the mention of election it is in direct correspondence to salvation. You cannot separate the two as one preceding the other, they coincide.

 

Sorry, but you are the one trying to put God in a "box" and limiting His salvation program , not me. </font>[/QUOTE]WRONG! That's why I preach to every creature within earshot, so that seed may be planted and then watered and God gives the increase!

 

We did this long ago. We invite you to join us.

No, none of the elect will perish.

The elect were not always saved. Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:10: For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. Clearly, the elect did not yet have salvation. In addition, being chosen from the foundation of the world and from the beginning show very clear textual evidence that election does not equal salvation. It is election to salvation. It ensures the salvation of the those chosen.

In our theology, God chooses without respect to the individual. In your theology, God respects only those who choose him. In reality, this actually this blows your theology away. Think about it: If God chooses unconditionally without reference to the individual, then it shows he does not respect persons. If God only chooses those who choose him, then he is respecting others. He is respecting them because they are smarter or born in a better place, or have better friends, etc. The statement you use actually disproves your whole theology.

Can you show us this from Scripture? I have asked several others to but so far all of your opinion have declined to support it with Scripture. Hopefully you are different. Show us where God chooses people because of their belief and repentance.

Then explain Eph 1:4, 2 Thess 2:13, and 2 Tim 2:8. These verses explicitly refute you and you have yet to deal with them.

[ June 21, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Exactly. A heart of stone won't receive the word. A heart of flesh will. And it is God himself who is the master-tiller of hearts; it is the Spirit who turns hearts of stone into hearts of flesh. But I don't know how this helps your argument, or how it pertains to the subject of the thread.

No, it's birthed out of the clear statements in the verses given you in this thread, which, BTW, you have not addressed. Just to remind you, these verses say: </font>

• God elected before the foundation of the world.</font>
• God elected from the beginning.</font>
• There were elect who had not yet obtained salvation.</font>

Please, no more philosophical obfuscation. Address these verses.