Are denominations Biblical?

I am hoping that you are not twisting my words just to appear to `win' an argument. Assuming the best of you, I will explain in more detail.

The Bible is inerrant and fully accurate in every subject it addresses. It teaches what it teaches regardless of what we wish it taught or think it ought to teach.

A lot of people mistake their `The Bible teaches' inferences with actual `The Bible says.' Hence, they think that when their `The Bible teaches' inferences are disagreed with, the disagreement is with the Bible itself!

It is not: the disagreement is over whether or not someone is right when s/he says `The Bible teaches.'

Now, not one of mortals is infallible. That means that when we come up with a disputed `The Bible teaches' -type statement, it is a reckoning of us as mortals. It may be correct -- but it is still a reckoning of mortals.

This business of teaching our `The Bible teaches' inferences as Scripture itself does a lot to proliferate division in the church. We must make a distinction between our `The Bible teaches' reckonings and the written Word of God itself.

 

AJ is quite correct in what the passage is saying:

The KJV is an accurate translation. Its meaning is not hard to discern, and as he says there are countless other Scripture such as 2John 9-11 to back it up, as well 2Cor.6:14-17.

Denominations, per se, define what a group of people believe.
Would you attach yourselves to the Mormons? The Mormons believe that they are the only way to heaven; that they are Biblically correct; that they have the correct translation of the Bible. If they are the true Christians, then why not believe them and take them at their word? What is preventing you. You realize that the word "Mormon" denotes to you false doctrine. And thus you would not join such a church.
What about the Church of Christ, the RCC, the Anglican, The Orthodox, the United Pentecostal, and so on. You realize what each of these churches believe by their statement of faith. Whether or not you believe that some of them have genuine believers among them is not the case. All of them are espousing false doctrine. It is our obligation to choose that church, that according to its statement of faith, and by its practice is closest to the truth of the Word of God. All believers will never be under the same roof, never. God works today in local churches, not in one ubiquitous univversal church that the Bible knows nothing of.

 

Romans 16:17

Your view is not likely if we go with JUST THE TEXT.

 

Still, you are saying that the Bible speaks the truth, but we as humans are incapable of comprehending that truth????????

Regardless of what others teach, I must read it myself and obey it to the best of my ability, and it tells me to avoid false doctrines.

AJ

 

Those passages refer to our relationships with non-Christians.

They do not apply to relationships between Christians. Romans 16:17 gives a prohibition against Christians dividing against Christians.

Denominations are not necessarily divisions.

Did I say anything about joining these sorts of congregations?

I am talking about divisions. As a Christian with a certain set of understandings of Scripture, none of these types of places is likely to ever be my home congregation.

Still, `at church' is not the only place to `be Christian.' Christ's teachings have relevance to all of life. His teachings should be enacted by His followers both `at church' and away from assembly.

 

You only need to reply to me once Darron. Was three times for added empasis?
I will delete two of them for you.

 

I am so sleepy that I was half thru the second one before I realized it was a repeat. :laugh:

 

Did I accidentally post the exact same thing three times? I did hit the "Edit" button several times. If those became separate posts: oops, sorry and thank you.

 

No I am not. There are teachings that are direct from Scripture. You know, ones such as Matthew 22:37-40, Luke 6:31, John 3:16-8, Acts 10:43, Ephesians 2:8-10, John 17:20-1, etc..

Distinct from this, there are the `We think the Bible teaches such-and-such about this' that depend on `inference' from Scripture. These `inferences' are not direct from Scripture, but are human surmisings drawn from Scripture. They may be accurate human surmisings of Scripture, but they are not Scripture itself, and they are human surmisings.

Amen. I am glad of this

Does it tell you to avoid Christians who hold religious tenets you view erroneous?

As I have shown from Scripture, no. It teaches that Christians are to refrain from such conduct.

 

Darron,

AMEN. 100% Correct.

There is a grand total of.....

ONE

...church here on earth. Not many "churches".

The universal church. All of the born again people on earth. THAT...in its primary meaning...is who "the church" is.

There are individual assemblies adressed in the scriptures, just as there are now. But they are only a "church" in an extremely secondary, and very minimal sense. And in the vast majority of cases many who are "members" of those assemblies are NOT members of Gods church.

If everyone would get a grip on what IS and what ISNT "the CHURCH" so many good an profitable things could occur.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Denominations outlandishly allow for division among believers. We are to be one accord in the body of Christ upholding one truth - the Word of God, NOT just selective scriptures that you pick and choose to believe in.

If people believed in the infallible Word of God through and through without allowing man-made laws standing in the path of truth, there would be no room for error.

How can our limbs operate without the command of our mind?
How can the body of Christ operate without the agreement among believers?

 

The Bible makes no such claim. The English word "church" is translated from the Greek word "ekklesia" which simply means assembly or congregation. It never has the meaning of a so-called "universal church (assembly). It is a contradiction of terms. One cannot have an "unassembled assembly." It can't be universal and local at the same time. All assemblies are local. There is no such thing as a universal assembly or congregation. Such a monster does not exist. If the KJV translators were not restriced by political expediency and had correctly translated the world as "congregation" we would not have all the misconconceptions that we have today in the doctrine of Ecclesiology.

All of Paul's Epistles were either written to local churches or to pastors of local churches. God's instrument of blessing today is in and through the local church. There is no such thing as a universal church. All seven churches of the Book of Revelation were actual historical churches. The "church" in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost, was the local church that existed in the city of Jerusalem. It was not some nebulous universal thing. It was real.

 

Amen DHK

I tried to get this across but was rebuked for it.

There is no way God would want me to fellowship with other churches that teach false doctrine, so how can we be members of the same church?

AJ

 

DHK,

I said....

And you said...

I'm afraid it does. Forcefully.

From Hebrews 12....

Here is an excellant treatment of the wonderfull truth of the "universal" nature of Gods church here on earth. As you will see, it is FLOODED with scripture...

(a link will follow)

As you can see..(I hope)..the scriptures THUNDER home the truth of the "universal" aspect of Gods church...while still affirming the "local" aspect of His gathered assemblies.

The church *can* mean that, in a secondary sense, and sometimes it does.

As is evident in this post, the scriptures STRONGLY disagree with your view.

And much of what is above...PROVING the truth of the universal church...comes from Pauls epistles.

That is *one* of Gods ways of blessing His people. He has an innumerable amount of ways to bless His people.

Since the scriptures teach that there is...see above...I am in disagreement with you. I desire to be on Gods side of things.

True. That doesnt disturb my point in the least.

True. That has nothing to do with Gods "universal" church. Both aspects...universal and local...are true.

Just as the "universal" aspect of the Church is real. The scriptures do not lie, DHK. Both aspects of the church are true. The material above, proving the universal aspect of Gods church, is FLOODED with scripture.

http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/top/church.htm

God bless,

Mike

 

The church Jesus referred to in Matthew 16:18 is the church he established during his eartthly ministry. It was already in existence on the day of Pentecost, complete with a Head, both ordinances, a commission.

One may speak of the church in a generic sense, in the same way we talk about the family, but takes concrete expression only in a local congregation. It may also be referred to in the prospective sense, when all of us will gather in a great "general assembly" in the presence of God.

There is an established order--salvation, baptism, being added to the church. In Acts, on the day of Pentecost, they were added to an already existing church, the congregation at jerusalem.

Jesus shed his blood for his local churches, which Paul asserted in Acts 20:28 referring to the congregation at Ephesus.

Paul described the church at Corinth as the body of Christ (I Cor 12:27)

The so-called Universal Church is fractured beyond repair, with many of its "members" affiliated with organizations which teach heresy. It is not only dysfunctional, it is non-functional, never having carried out a single command contained in the Great Commission. Not only can it be divided, is is in fact divided.

Advocates of a Universal Church are confusing it with the kingdom. They are not the same.

At least the local churches have a specific mission and purpose. What is the purpose for the existence of a Universal Church? Fellowship? Impossible. Corporate Worship? Impossible. Missions? Impossible.

 

Hebrews 12:22-24 says nothing whatsoever of a universal church on earth. It indeed speaks of a universal church (or assembly), the only place where all believers can be assembled and that is in heaven. But what does that have to do with churches down here? It is impossible for a universal assembly in heaven to assemble on earth.

Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
--No universal church on earth here, and agreed no local church either. It is speaking of a heavenly scene.

Scripture taken out of context does not "thunder home the truth of the universal aspect of a so-called non-existent universal church. There exists no such animal in the Bible.

Do you also ascribe to the ideology that "If the KJV was good enough for Paul then it is good enough for me." That is the logic that you are demonstrating here.
Ekklesia had one meaning--assembly, congregation. It did not take on the other English meanings of church. You can't force an English meaniing of "church" into a Greek word.
The word "ekklesia" did not mean church building, as we often use it: "I am going to church." There were no buildings built exclusively for the worship until 250 years after the disciples. The word isn't found in the Bible. Ekklesia does not take on the same meanings as our word does. It simply means "assembly."

I will give you an example:
Acts 19:39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.
Acts 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly. (or church??)
Here was more of political gathering that assembled in a theatre with the purpose of running Paul out of their town. They were angy at him for the people were turning to Christ and away from the idols that silversmiths were crafting, and those men were therefore losing money. You know the story. But here the word assembly is the same word for church. It is consistently translated church. If the KJV translators had been consistent throughout the NT they would have translated it assembly all 121 occurences not just 118 times that it occured.

Scriptures taken out of context don't disagree with me.

You are sadly mistaken. Let me repeat the statement again:

"All of Paul's Epistles were either written to local churches or to pastors of local churches."
--In Paul's "Pastoral Epistles" why would he be writing about a universal church when they are written to give specific instructions to pastors in governing and taking care of local churches.
--In his other epistles, like 1Corinthians, Paul addresses specific problems even mentioning people by name. That doesn't sound like a universal church. There is not one letter that he writes where he doesn't mention some individual by name. How can you say they are teaching about some kind of universal church? They are not. They were very intensely personal letters to churches, most of which he had started.

I don't doubt that. But his primary blessing comes through the local church, one of the few institutions that has been directly ordained of God.

You have yet to show from Scripture that there is a universal church. What you have done is taken some verses and posted them thinking they speak of a universal church, when they don't. You haven't done anything to demonstrate the universality of "the church" There is no such thing.
I ask you again:
How can there exist an "unassembled assembly?
How does this unassembled assembly carry out the Lord's Table, and when and where, and how often do they do it?
Have they decided whether to use wine or grape juice?
Where does this unassembled meet?
Who takes up the offering? Who are the deacons?
Who does the preaching?
How is the Great Commission carried out by this unassembled assembly.

Such a monster does not exist, yea, cannot exist in the NT. It is not Biblical at all. It is a man-made doctrine.

A universal church is not real; it is imaginary. I have demonstrated that with the questions that I have just asked you. The Scriptures do not lie; they do not teach a universal church, and you have done nothing to show that they do. Your material above did not flood but were drowned and buried under the evidence that there is no universal church.

 

DHK (and Tom)...

I certainly have. Its as clear as a bell. You sort of remind me of the ostrich with its head in the hole in the ground. Or the old saying...

Try telling that to God. He'll get a smile out of it, and He will continue to work on you...enabling you to see this truth in due time.

I'm just a seed planter. :thumbs: (see 1 Cor 3:5-8)

What do you think happens when those in your assembly disperses until the next gathering?

There is more to ministry then the Lords Table, DHK. When an assembly disperses is the time when about 99% of ministry should be taking place.

Regarding the Lords supper, some choose one, some choose the other.

Back in the meeting place the next time they gather.

But DHK, they dont leave the "church", when they leave the "building"!!!

Anyone can.

The ones who were given that function.

Anyone can preach

Because assemblies dont spend 7 days a week, 24 hours a day gathered together.

All who are part of Gods universal church gather with other believers in an assembly for many 5% of their time each week. The other 95% of the time they are still part of the universal church...doing any of a million different works of ministry.

When I was lost an going through conviction, Gods caused many many different persuasions of christians to cross paths with me. Assemblies of God, Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, etc etc etc.

But they were all part of Gods army of ministers, and all of them planted seeds in me that came to fruition in due time.

The work of ministry, and thats what Gods universal church is all about, was taking place. Its a beaulituful thing, DHK. I cant understand how anyone can deny such a beautiful thing...particularly in light of the massive scriptural support it has.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

If everyone would submit to scripture become a Southern Baptist there would not be an issue.

 

Revmitchell,

Please tell me you are joking. You forgot to put a "smiley face" after that, to show you are joking?

Right?

(I'm not against the baptists at all. I think of myself as a "bapticostal")

Mike

 

One God

There is only ONE Holy Spirit. Those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of Christ and are led by the Holy Spirit and the written Word of God are part of ONE AND THE SAME body, no matter which "denomination" they fellowship in - provided the denomination is not a cult and provided the denomination is indeed Christian.

Which denomination/group/church etc is indeed Christian, and which isn't, is obviously a subject of endless debate, but the point is not everyone sitting among Christians in a church (any church) is a Christian (has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is led by the Spirit and the wriiten Word of God), but those who are and who do, share in the same Spirit as the ones sitting in another denomination across the road. So my answer to the question which started this thread would be, "I am a Christian, and I attend church/fellowship at...".

Andrew