Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 6, 2009.

  1. th1bill

    th1bill
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    ... John 10:7-9 In this passage and other gospel references Jesus states the case clearly that He is the gate into Heaven. Read the four Gospels carefully and it is quite clear that that nobody has ever, nor will anyone ever, entered into Heaven except they come through Jesus. In the Gospels we also find the story of Lazarus, covered with sores with no-one but the dogs that licked his wounds, to care for him. We find Lazarus in Abraham's Buxom, a.k.a. Paradise, and the rich man, not in Hell (he has not yet been judged) but in a place of torment.
    ... Going deeper into this matter, Jesus, in the four Gospel Accounts, makes it clear that He is not just some way or a way to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but He makes it clear that He is the way, the only way, to enter into Heaven.
    ... We are left with all those Old Testament saints, Moses, Abraham, Israel/Jacob and on and on that looked forward to the coming of Messiah but had not seen Him and could not enter into the presence of God until they had. Matt. 27:52 through v:54 is seldom preached but it is an important passage and it is felt by this lay teacher that it bears on this subject.
    ... It has been and short of the pastors and the men on the mission field that will receive this posting, that these dead people running through the streets of the Holy City are the just released, by Jesus, Old Testament saints. It is taught, in many circles that Jesus descended into Hell for three days but the only place I have ever found that statement is in the Christian Creeds of old and I have, to this point, failed to see the idea supported by scripture.
    ... So, the short answer to the question, "Are Heaven and Paradise the same place," is no.
     
  2. MB

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    Hi th1Bill;
    David wrote;
    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

    MB
     
  3. Winman

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    Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
     
  4. Johnv

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    The OP is a great question. A careful look at scripture indicates no. Paradise and Heaven were not the same thing. In Jewish tradition, when a righteous person died, they went to Sheol (the resting place of the dead) and were in a state of being in "Abraham's bosom". Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection. When he died at the crucifixion, he descended into Sheol, where he resumanbly remained until being resurrected. Yet, he told the thief he would be with him "this day" in Paradise. Paradise here referrs to Abraham's bosom in Sheol.
     
  5. webdog

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    I disagree that Abraham's Bosom was a different place than Heaven...and to answer the OP, if Paradise is a place where Christ is present, there is no separation from God. Paradise / Heaven are one in the same.
     
  6. webdog

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    The context of that passage is dealing with the sign of Jesus' bodily resurrection. It says nothing of where Christ actually was for the three days, and unless soul sleep is a fact, Christ was with the Father.
     
  7. Winman

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    Webdog, I would disagree with you on that.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    This was after Jesus had risen from the dead and spoke to Mary Magdalene. He said he had not yet ascended to the Father.
     
  8. webdog

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    Yes...with His newly resurrected body. He said nothing of being with the Father prior. The only position that would be true using your understanding would be soul sleep.
     
  9. Winman

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    I don't understand what you are saying here, could you explain in detail?

    I may not get back till tomorrow, but I would appreciate an explanation.
     
  10. th1bill

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    ... That is an interesting spin you have put on my words, it is a spin most often twirled by the lost man. I ever said that Jesus is not in Heaven. My case is built on the scriptures and the truth is that Jesus did not ascend into Heaven until He was resurrected on the third day and the truth of the matter is that Jesus never descended into the Lake of Fire, a.k.a. Hell, but He did open the gates of Paradise, a.k.a. Abraham's Buxom, allowing the Old Testament saints to enter Heaven after He preached to them.
    ... Now, I did not offer you my opinion, I presented you, both of my pastors, several missionaries on the field in Central America and Africa the Biblical case for my stance. To be blunt and honest, your opinion, without scripture, is of no value at all. By the taking of the name Christian, we admit that our status is Bond Servant, a.k.a. Slave, belonging to God. As His servants it is His opinion that we must seek.
    ... May God bless all of His servants!


    DHK
     
    #10 th1bill, Oct 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2009
  11. Johnv

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    I concur with you, th1bill. Your post is consistent with the Jewish spiritual view of the day, as well as with the Jewish spiritual view of the OT.

    Jesus died, and entered Sheol. In Sheol, the souls of the OT righteous (including, presumably, the thief on the cross) were released, and, upon Jesus' subsequent resurrection and ascension, taken into Heaven.
     
    #11 Johnv, Oct 6, 2009
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  12. th1bill

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    ... I must ask, "Would you be so kind as to not shoot from the hip and show us in the scriptures?"
     
  13. th1bill

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    ... That is not true. My first post gave you the Biblical answer to the location of Jesus during the three days between burial and resurection.
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

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    I think we have a language problem here. Hell is derived from Helan old english to hide and the Greek Kalyptan which means to cover. The Greek Hades is both god and place of the dead. Which matches the hebrew word Gehenna. Which affirms that Jesus truelly died. The confusion I think comes with the modern english consept of hell. The early Christian creed in Latin states that Jesus "decendit ad Infero". Or Decended into hell. The problem is that its not talking about the lake of fire but the place of the dead. Inferus the root word means below. Add to it in the myth spawned by Dante in his inferno. Which is close sounding and relating to inferus. Thus the two consepts become one represented by one word in english hell. So Jesus died and went to the place of the dead Sheol and then rose again from the dead. rather than to some place of torment.
     
  15. webdog

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    Correct, you stated He went somewhere called Paradise which is not Heaven. I disagreed (and I'm not lost, btw)
    That's one long sentence! :) I agree He never went to Hell, but the burden of proof is on you that Abraham's Bosom was a place separate from Heaven that needed "opening". I also disagree He literally "preached" to anyone, rather that is a figure of speech pertaining to His victory over sin.
    To be honest, you presented their view of that Scripture which is nothing more than opinion....no different than mine.
    Agreed :thumbs:
     
  16. webdog

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    Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that "Abraham's Bosom" was a place separate from Heaven.
     
  17. Johnv

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    Okay, okay, let's not get our noses bent out of shape here, and let's not question each other's salvific state. Let's try to play nice.
     
  18. webdog

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    8Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
    39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one[e] greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

    43"When an evil[f] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

    This is Matthew 12:40 in context. Nothing here even alludes to the fact Christ went to an "Abraham's Bosom", in fact such a notion contradicts other OT Scripture like Ecclesiastes 12:7. His analogy was in Jonah being under the surface physically as His body would be "under the surface" physically. The righteous' spirit returns to God upon death. Abraham's Bosom really is no different than Purgatory in reasoning, which is not biblical IMO.
     
    #18 webdog, Oct 6, 2009
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  19. webdog

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    Some questions for the "Abraham's Bosom" crowd...

    Where did Elijah go in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2:1, 2:11)?

    Where were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at before Christ went to the cross (Matthew 8:11)?

    Where did Paul tell us paradise is in 2 Corinithians 12:2-4? Is this place "up" or down? In fact, is paradise in the previous verses in reference to paradise ever mentioned as being "up" or down?

    Where does it tell us that the spirit goes in Ecclesiastes 12:7 (prior to the cross) after death?

    Finish this phrase "to be absent from the body is to be _________________" (2 Corinthians 5:6-9
     
    #19 webdog, Oct 6, 2009
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  20. Johnv

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    Let's start with this question: In the OT, where did the souls of the dead go when they died?
     

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