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Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 6, 2009.

  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That's in my set of questions :)
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Oh yeah, huh?

    We shouldn't read too much into Eccleasteses 12:7. It says a person's dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God. The verse attempts to differentiate between our physical selves and our spiritual selves.

    In regards to my question of where the souls of the dead went when the body died, the answer is that souls went to Sheol (sometimes translated "the grave", sometimes translated "hell", but different from the "Lake of Fire"). To understand Sheol to the Jewish mind requires a grasp of Jewish cosmology (not just Jewish philosophy). In short, both righteous and unrighteous souls went to Sheol.
     
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Yes, his body was in the earth/grave.
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Webdog, we agree (don't faint or anything)! I tend to have this view as well.

    The fact is, the Bible is not clear about where Paradise is and therefore, it can be argued either way (Paradise is or is not heaven), imo. But I think that Paradise being heaven makes more sense.

    I think what this word meant in Jewish context would be important.
     
  5. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    No problem :)

    The 'into heaven' for Elijah does not refer necessarily to God's abode known as the third heaven though it 'could' but in the Hebrew there were 3 heavens. One was the sky, one is where the stars are, and the 'third heaven' is the abode of God. Here however I believe it refers to the sky as it is a whirlwind/firy chariot that picks him 'up' and into heaven. If you watch a tornado pick something up and take it into the sky, we would say 'sky' but the Hebrew word is 'heaven'. Since we both understand that context determines how a word is used, and the context here refers to Elishah watching what is happening and describing it in the manner of a 'whirlwind/chariot' going up, the context here is dealing with the sky during the daylight hours. So if Elijah was picked up and leaving our atmosphere he would slowly vanish from sight.

    Now here is the problem with them or any OT saints being in third heaven before Christ's death and resurrection. Sin can not enter heaven without immediately being judged. Hebrews in the NT says that the OT sacrifices 'did not take away sin' but only covered it. It is the same as saying a person is covered with sewage but put over it a long clean white robe. It doesn't take away the stench or uncleaness of it only covers it for a time. The other problem here is that the coat is now defiled as well since unclean thing contaminate clean things but never does the clean affect the unclean in the same manner. Therefore though their sins were covered they were not removed and thus they can not and could not enter heaven without having their sins 'removed'. Which is what Christ sacrifice did, it removed the sin completely.

    Since this is a prophetic statement, they 'will be' in the Kingdom of God 'after' Christ's death and resurrection.

    Paul's vision was 'after' Christ's ascension not before.

    I will deal this one later tonight. Time from me to eat.

    This again is 'after' Christ's ascension.
     
    #25 Allan, Oct 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2009
  6. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    webdog,
    ... You can demonstrate your twinkle toes until the cows come home but God will not shrug and pass your false teaching off as cute. Pleasedo not claim not to be teaching, yu posted the message and Satan did not make you do it Mr. Wilson.
    ... I never judged you as a lost man, that is not area, it belongs to God. I compared your publishing style with that of the lost man and still you shoot from the hip, build straw men ad avoid the scriptures like the plague. As for the scriptures being the opinions of men, all I can say is that you need t fall back five yards and punt. (2Tim. 3:16) All scripture is breathed by God.
    ... Now, about discerning the state of a man's salvation. As a Christian I know, from studying the scriptures, these past 18+ years that a man's spiritual condition is made known by the fruit he or she bears. Sir, your fruit stinks! My best assessment of your spiritual condition from this short encounter does not lead me to believe that I be seated at the wedding table with you, short of repentance on your part.
     
  7. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    ... No, I posted the OP ad you have stated that I am wrong ad have failed to support your words. You have nt made your case at all.
     
  8. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    I'm sorry but you are way out in left field. Go back a read, slowly, the OP and you will find that I never said that Jesus was not in the ground for three days, you said that. You have Jesus ascending to sit beside the Father before He receives the glorified body. The text given by me in the OP places Jesus, in the spirit, preaching to the Old Testament saints.
    ... The text you have posted has naught t do with the issue you choose to dispute.
     
  9. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    ... There you go building straw men ad ignoring every word I posted in the OP. Nobody wants to argue with you, to do so is a exercise in vainty when all that is needed is for you to read the OP and to think about what it says and not add to it what is not there. Your examples and proof texts are examples fr after the cross. my OP deals with the Saints that died before Jesus. You're using oranges to belittle apples, it wo't work.
     
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I only agree in part with the OP but there are some aspects that I believe are incorrect. One such point is that the Rich man is not in hell when in fact the scripture itself says point blank that he 'is' in hell.
    I think you have the wrong idea of hell being the place where people are sent 'after' judgment. Hell is a holding place awaiting judgment and the place to which people are sent 'after the judgment' is into the Lake of Fire which is also called or known as, the second death.
     
    #30 Allan, Oct 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2009
  11. wpbarrett

    wpbarrett New Member

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    I've read several of Webdog's post and although I might not agree with everything he and others say on here, I do believe I will meet him in Heaven. I consider him a fellow adopted son of God. To accuse a man of false teaching and questioning his salvation over scriptures than can be and are confusing to some of us is very dangerous ground. The last I heard this is a debate forum and not a Judgment forum . Bill you started this thread with a chip on your shoulder and I pray that you don't leave this thread with a chip on your shoulder. Lets bring Glory to God and not ourselves, thats something that we have all been guilty of at one time or another.

    God's grace to you and your family, Billy
     
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Ok, back to your final question.

    This does not say the spirits of the righteous but in fact it refers to ALL spirits will in fact come back or come before God. It refers to the fact that just as all men will die, all men will come before God.

    I have seen you quote Keil & Delitzsch before and would suggest looking at their commentary on it. There are others who agree concerning 'this' passage but I'm just showing I'm not the only one :)
     
  13. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    First, you attitude does not become a brother in Christ and thus makes even your 'fruit' stink my brother.

    Second, just because you hold to a certain perspective and find that it works with some scripture does not mean it true concerning the whole of scripture. This is where speaking to each other in kindness and love allows us to prove or reprove each other in the truth. It just might in the very least, cause us to go back and look again at what we believe from another view point to see if what we hold does in fact hold fast.

    Third, your rhetoric is rather harsh and ungodly itself and would be benificial to you to tone it down. Web can hold his own and his understanding with respect to his view is not 'from the hip' or what I call 'willy-nilly'. If you want to change his view you need a more solid and in depth presentation than just your statements and small presentation whereby you expect others to just receive it as truth. There isn't enough there in the Op to really make any such change.

    Fourth, It is against the Rules of the BB to declare or openly presume a person is unsaved. However, your judgment is poor at best if your short interaction with Web has lead you to believe such about him. His interaction with you is no different in any manner than yours with him. Web is a brother in Christ however he not a false teacher since in scripture you will find that they know they are wrong but do so in order to lead others from the faith. You might actually be meaning falsely or incorrectly teaching something but there are worlds of diffence between the two.
     
    #33 Allan, Oct 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2009
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    th1bill - I agree with Allan that I find your attitude and words here quite bothersome. I'd ask that you pray before you type to be sure that the Spirit is affecting your words and not your own will.

    When Jesus was on the cross, He said "Into your hands I commend my spirit" and He died. Where did His spirit go?
     
  15. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    It is a statement easily understood as the equivalent of 'my life/being is in Your hands' or 'the safety of my spirit in your is Your care'.

    This reflects David's prophetic statement of God not leaving His soul in sheol.
    Sheol or the 'place of the dead' refers to both the physical and spiritual aspects at the same time.
     
    #35 Allan, Oct 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2009
  16. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    The place of the dead.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I will not be discussing anything with you until you repent of your self righteous attitude that gives you the right to question my salvation.
     
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I don't wish to take sides, but I must concur. There was, at the very least, an implication of judging one's salvation without merit. That statement should be retracted, and an apology issued.
     
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I don't believe the context is the second heaven when we look at why Elijah was taken up in the first place. What would the purpose be in God removing him from Earth to take him into a holding place? It doesn't make any sense. Same with Enoch.
    ...however, Christ was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. The timing is irrelevant. I think you are looking at it from the standpoint that Heaven is in the realm of time, which I do not believe it is.
    I think that Christ was stressing that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already there and the prophecy the many will join them there.
    Correct, however here we have a clear passage equating paradise with Heaven. There is no such passage equating paradise with another place besides Heaven.
    ...yet he never stated that. For the righteous (all dispensations) to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
     
    #39 webdog, Oct 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2009
  20. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    The place of the dead for the OT people... Sheol...
    Sheol was seperated by 2 compartments.. .Paradise, and Hell. (Fire and punishment)

    Luke 16 gives a great look at the two.
    Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was a holding tank for the righteous.. those who had faith that God was sending a Messiah...
    Hell for the unrighteous...

    Paradise and Hell were seperated by a great gulf.. .Luke 16.

    When Jesus descended into Paradise, he released the righteous and took them (The first fruits) to the Third Heaven. He moved Paradise to Heaven during his ascension.

    Today... Saved go directly to the Third Heaven upon death.. they are present with God.
    The Lost go to Hell.. which is still where it was in the OT... but will be delivered up at the Great White throne Judgment, then will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
     
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