Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

I sense that someone will not be with us too much longer.

 

Ann

You raise two very important questions! My answer to the first question is: No we do not know it was Samuel. The reason is as you say: God tells us to not try to speak to the dead and to so so is an abomination, therefore, there is no Scripture that tells us that the dead can communicate with the living.

 

While I agree that we are not to communicate with the dead, scripture does state, and very explicitely at that, it was 'Samuel'. While this is the 'only' occurance we find of it it is apparent God's allowance of him being there was to rebuke and forth-tell Sauls destruction for his sins. It doesn't speak of it being a demon or an angel or any other such thing. It states that 'Samuel' spoke to Saul. Remember, it even freaked out the witch/medium

 

Thx, I can kinda go along with that basic breakdown while adding that I believe Heaven is more vast and complex than we can even wrap our finite minds around. It's like trying to envision how God can be everywhere in the Spirit and interacting with us in the flesh. Anyway...

 

Well, I can't get away from the fact that scripture says it 'was' Samuel and not something or anything else speaking in his place.
Notice it states:

Now, that alone should tell us that scripture makes no bones about saying this is Samuel. But if that were not enough listen to the next verse:

If a person is still not willing to see that this is Samuel, regardless of if Saul could see him or not, (it definately appears he could hear him), then I leave it to them so see it as they do. It is apparent at least to me, that the scriptural text itself is sufficient evidence to dicate that it was indeed Samuel. Though it was not the medium/witch who brought him forth but God, and is the very reason the witch was terrified due who it was, and therefore knew who Saul was as well.

 

Could not "come up from below" simply mean "the grave"? Or the place of the dead?

 

I don't think "bring up" is a reference to an actual direction of up or down. I think it is an expression meaning to summon or call on.

 

I agree, but when scripture states Samuel is the one who appeared and that Samuel is the one who spoke, and that Samuel repeats God's proclamation agaist Saul.. the fact remains it must be Samuel.

Do you know of any other place in scripture where it specifically states a particular person is speaking though it is not in fact that person but another?

In any case, with all due respect to M. Henry I believe he is incorrect here. He starts with a false assumption and concludes with the same. I believe his 'assumption' stem from he never once shows any biblical proof that the spirit who came up was not 'the' Samuel but that was in fact a demon (or Satan as he suggests). He does alludes back to the fact that Saul wanted to go to a person who speaks with familar spirits but this in no way can be used to assume the spirit that came forth was not Samuel, eapecially when scripture gives no such indication it was anyone else but Samuel. In fact scripture seems to go out of its way to state it 'was' Samuel and not a familar spirit.

Here let me show what I mean here:

Take careful note of what I bolded. Does it state when she saw 'the familar spirit' or 'Samuel'?
Now watch. Did she know who it was yet?? No

This was her answer.

Saul then asked her to tell him what the person looked like. Why? Because she didn't know who it was! It wasn't who she expected. But when she described him, Saul perceived or knew immediately who it was that 'she' did not. Notice at this point, it was not the witch who was conversing with the spirit, which is the normal mode of operation because the spirit either speaks to or through the medium. But here you have Saul speaking directly with Samuel in conversation and it also seems apparent from vs 21 that the witch was excluded from the conversation.

To assume it was anyone else or an imposter/demon seems, to me, to reject what the passage explicitely states. No where does it say that the spirit called forth was anyone 'other than' Samuel himself. Scripture never once states it is a familiar spirit that comes forth but declares point blank that is Samuel and NOT what the witch was looking for.


However, regardless of what I just gave - both views (that it was and was not Samuel) are prominent and established views in of the passage in question and therefore to assume it will be cleared up here in just a few posts .. well I don't think either of us is 'that' good :laugh:

But Context is Key for the verse you want to bring up here.
First, this is a question speaking to the fact that man does not know where man's spirit goes or maybe better 'the destination of man's spirit'. Thus it begins with 'Who knows..."

Second, the verse preceding it states that 'all' go to the same place. Does this then speak to Universalism? I doubt you would agree, so what is the context here. It has nothing, nothing to do with where a person's spirit specifically goes at death, whether up or down. Remember that this is NOT speaking of saved people but ALL people/mankind. Soloman was speaking to the fact that man is not like the animals but is greater and the imagery there is pointing this out.

 

The two passage brought up on this thread, both of which come from Ecclesiastes, both speak NOT of the saved but of ALL men.

The passage which states that man's body goes back to the ground from where it came just as mans spirit returns to God from who it came.

Did you come from the ground or your mother?
The point of the passage, and it's surrounding passages, is the origin from which different things came (body and spirit). All spirits of men will go back to God- both saved and unsaved. This is the judgment. Just as all will go back to the dust from which our bodies were derived - this to is judgment.

Context is Key in both this passage refering to the spirits of men going back to God and the passage you brought up a few posts ago with refer not to the save but again, ALL men.

 

I agree with Allan, it was Samuel himself who came up, because the scriptures clearly identify it as Samuel. And the medium saw Samuel (and apparently some other spirits) ascending up out of the Earth.

When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, he told her not to touch him, because he had not yet ascended to the Father.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This was on the very day Jesus rose from the dead, and he clearly says he has not yet ascended to his Father. The reason he could not be touched was because as High Priest he had to offer his blood on the Mercy Seat.

Lev 16:4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.

Notice it was very important that Aaron wash his flesh.

Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
25 And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.
26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.
27 And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung.
28 And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.

Notice how important it was to wash the flesh. This is why Mary was not allowed to touch Jesus.

And the scriptures say Jesus offered his blood once and for all for us.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

And notice 8 days later in John that Jesus allowed Thomas to touch him.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

So, sometime between the first Sunday when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdelene and a week later when he allowed Thomas to touch him, he ascended to heaven and offered his own blood on the Mercy Seat.

 

Winman

Where in Scripture does it teach that the spirit/soul of the believer, the saved, goes into the grave?

 

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

At the time Jesus spoke to Nicodemus he said that no man had ascended up to heaven except for himself.

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

This verse asks who has ascended up to heaven or descended and implies that only the Lord has done so.

Verses that show that Jesus went down to the Paradise section of Hell and brought out the dead saints are Ephesians 4

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Notice it says "when" Jesus ascended he led captivity captive. It is only after Jesus ascended to his Father that Paradise is spoken of as being up.

2 Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Here Paradise is spoken of as being "up", but in Luke 16 it is shown as being below.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The rich man is in torments, but notice that Lazarus is comforted. So many believe (and I agree) that Abraham's bosom is another name for Paradise.

But notice in verse 31 how Abraham said the rich man's brothers would not be persuaded, though one "rose" from the dead. So at this time all dead whether saved or lost went down into the Earth. The unsaved went to a certain part of Hell and were tormented. The saved also went down into Hell, but it was a different compartment seperated by a great gulf. Here the saved were comforted.

And David in Acts also told that Jesus went down into the Paradise section of Hell.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So, you see right there from David that the Lord's soul went down to Hell, but God would not leave him there. And this is where the thief went also.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus was in the heart of the Earth for three days, so this is also where the thief was, because Jesus said "To day".

Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

Winman

Your response ignores Ecclesiastes 12:7 as well as the ascension of Enoch and Elijah!

Ecclesiastes 12:7 specifically states that the spirit/soul of man returns to God. As for Enoch and Elijah they were apparently taken to heaven in bodily form.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John Gill writes of this passage as I have stated before:

Ver. 7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, &c.] The body, which is made of dust, and is no other in its present state than dust refined and enlivened; and when the above things take place, mentioned in Ec 12:6, or at death, it returns to its original earth; it becomes immediately a clod of earth, a lifeless lump of clay, and is then buried in the earth, where it rots, corrupts, and turns into it; which shows the frailty of man, and may serve to humble his pride, as well as proves that death is not an annihilation even of the body; see Ge 3:19 Job 1:21;

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it; from whom it is, by whom it is created, who puts it into the bodies of men, as a deposit urn they are entrusted with, and are accountable for, and should be concerned for the safety and salvation of it; this was originally breathed into man at his first creation, and is now formed within him by the Lord; hence he is called the God of the spirits of all flesh; see Ge 2:4 Zec 12:1 Nu 16:22. Now at death the soul, or spirit of man, returns to God; which if understood of the souls of men in general, it means that at death they return to God the Judge of all, who passes sentence on them, and orders those that are good to the mansions of bliss and happiness, and those that are evil to hell and destruction. So the Targum adds,

``that it may stand in judgment before the Lord;''

or if only of the souls of good men, the sense is, that they then return to God, not only as their Creator, but as their covenant God and Father, to enjoy his presence evermore; and to Christ their Redeemer, to be for ever with him, than which nothing is better and more desirable; this shows that the soul is immortal, and dies not with the body, nor sleeps in the grave with it, but is immediately with God.

Furthermore, you completely misinterpret the passage from Luke. I believe that this passage is a parable and Verse 31 refers to the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even though He rose from the dead He was still rejected and is still rejected by most Jews. John Gill also writes of this passage:

though one rose from the dead; as Christ did; whose resurrection, the truth of it they endeavoured to baffle, stifle, and suppress: this was the sign Christ gave them, of the truth of his Messiahship; and yet they repented not of what they had done to him, that they might believe in him; but remained still in their impenitence and infidelity, and so died. This shows the regard that ought to be had to the written word, as read, or preached; and that it is a sad sign of a desperate condition, when men reject divine revelation. Beza's ancient copy adds, "and should go unto them".

Now what does Gill say about Ephesians 4:9 from the passage you presented:

Ephesians 4:8-10
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ver. 9. Now that he ascended, &c.] These words are a conclusion of Christ's descent from heaven, from his ascension thither; for had he not first descended from thence, it could not have been said of him that he ascended; for no man hath ascended to heaven but he that came down from heaven, Joh 3:13 and they are also an explanation of the sense of the psalmist in the above citation, which takes in his humiliation as well as his exaltation; which humiliation is signified by his descent into the earth:

what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? this the Papists understand of his decent into a place they call Limbus Patrum, which they make to be contiguous to hell; and where they say the patriarchs were detained till Christ's coming; and that he went thither to deliver them out of it; and that these are the captivity he led captive; all which is fictitious and fabulous: for certain it is, that the place where Abraham was with Lazarus in his bosom was not near to hell, but afar off, and that there was a great gulf between them, Lu 16:23,26 and the spirits or souls of the patriarchs returned to God that gave them, when separated from their bodies, as the souls of men do now, Ec 12:7 nor did Christ enter any such feigned place at his death, but went to paradise, where the penitent thief was that day with him; nor were the patriarchs, but the principalities and powers Christ spoiled, the captivity he led captive and triumphed over: some interpret this of Christ's descent into hell, which must be understood not locally, but of his enduring the wrath of God for sin, which was equivalent to the torments of hell, and of his being in the state of the dead; but it may rather design the whole of his humiliation, as his descent from heaven and incarnation in the virgin's womb, where his human nature was curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth; and his humbling himself and becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, when he was made sin and a curse for his people, and bore all the punishment due to their transgressions; and his being in Hades, in the state of the dead, in the grave, in the heart of the earth, as Jonah in the whale's belly: reference seems to be had to Ps 139:15 where "the lower parts of the earth", is interpreted by the Targum on the place of amad aoyrk, "his mother's womb"; and so it is by Jarchi, Aben Ezra, Kimchi, and Ben Melec. The Alexandrian copy and the Ethiopic version leave out the word "first" in this clause.

Sorry Winman but I have to believe Scripture such as Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the passages regarding Enoch and Elijah rather than you. Also I must accept Gill's interpretation of certain passages rather than yours, particularly since I believe yours to be incorrect.

 

Read Rev. 21 about the New Jerusalem which is our final destination. It comes after the great white throne judgment at which time each of us will be called to account and take the particular "room" that Christ has prepared for us. before then, we will simply be asleep in Christ which is paradise, but not our final resting place.

 

Are you advocating soul sleep?