Are men feminized in our churches?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Gina B, Jan 24, 2009.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    I didn't want to hijack the thread where this idea was presented, but wanted to respond. Here is a partial quote and the link to the thread so it can be seen in context:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=56773&page=2

    I've heard this said repeatedly, as if it's common that women are doing the jobs of men in our churches. Some people even go so far as to say that women are doing these jobs because men won't.

    I'm wondering what these jobs are that women are doing in churches that are supposed to be the job of males. I'm not seeing it in our Baptist churches. I was in a church that had deaconesses, but that's a given role in the Word.

    I know there are some that differ theologically in their perception of men vs women and what they are scripturally allowed to do in church. That's about it though.

    Concerning what roles men and women have in church, just what are these jobs that these manly women are taking over? What are the jobs being refused because men are being feminized?
     
  2. Jim1999

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    Whenever I have spoken about this subject, it has bee in reference to churches so low in male membership that only women were left to run the whole church.

    To my mind, there isn't a job in the church that a woman can't do, and that includes preaching. I do not isolate a few passages where Paul speaks against certain women in a few churches who happen to be overstepping themselves.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    PS. If you mention the possibility of me being feminine, I shall strike you with my handbag!
     
    #2 Jim1999, Jan 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2009
  3. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Are you threatening me, woman?! :cool:
     
  4. Jerome

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    Lady Sunday School teachers threaten the patriarchal authority of fathers and the church's ordained teaching elder man of God, according to this Baptist pastor:

    "the Sunday school movement became almost exclusively a women’s movement as fathers became less involved in the spiritual upbringing of their children and church life in general. Also of interest is the formation of the Women’s Missionary Union and the birth of 19th century feminism in this period. Perhaps there is a connection between the Sunday school movement and the disruption in the proper roles of headship and submission for men and women in the local church."

    "the modern Sunday school model is easily seen as being in competition with what God has ordained, i.e. fathers instructing in the home and the elders instructing the family in the context of public worship."

    "what need is there for a Sunday school? Even more than that, what damage is taking place when the children are removed from the teaching of those whom God has appointed to feed His flock?"
     
  5. canadyjd

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    Scripture is clear that leadership in a fellowship of Christians is restricted to men. That doesn't mean women have no voice, or no role whatsoever.

    As far as these passages being few and pertaining only to certain churches, I disagee.

    Paul's argument for male leadership is based on scripture and the creation. It is God's idea for male leadership, not Paul's.

    BTW, I don't believe the deacons were intended to be a leadership body within the church. Scripture favors an elder led fellowship.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    we have been through this rubbish so many times it is beyond belief. Chauvenism, pure and simple. Just like when we are short of missionaries on the "killing fields". "Here am I, Lord, send her...."

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    Did you know you were a male chauvinist? :laugh:
     
  8. gb93433

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    I remember when a woman missionary spoke in a missions class while I was in seminary and a young arrogant student asked her about what right she had in being a woman missionary. The lady responded by saying that if there were not so many lazy men like him then the women would not have to go. He never said another word.
     
  9. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Does your comment show that the Bible churches were right all along?
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Sad but so true among too many.
     
  11. tinytim

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    Gina, a lot of time this argument is used (that men are being feminized) is because they want a short cut in slamming those like me that believe that God can use a woman...

    (NOT getting into it now though... )

    They throw this at us instead of saying they don't agree based on the Bible.

    I can accept doctrine that differs from mine as long as there is scripture for it. But some Baptists can't. They know what they believe, but have never struggled with why they believe the way they do..

    They just went to church, grew up in church.. and this is all they had ever experienced..

    You see it all the time here on BB...
    Some know-it-all comes here, with both guns loaded, ready to blast away at our "liberal" beliefs... but when confronted with scripture that disagrees with said know it all, they get mad, call us nuts, or bible deniers, etc.
    Some even call Jim a woman!!! lol (I loved it Gina)

    (This is one reason I am still on BB.. I need the interaction to learn)

    The biggest blessing I ever had was experiencing people who didn't interpret the scripture the same way I did growing up.. It forced me to deal with the beliefs my dad taught me... Some I have abandoned, because I don't see the scripture in the same light as my dad, some I have fully embraced because I struggled through it, and solidified my faith.

    Women in ministry is one area I am still struggling with.
    I don't think I could go to a church where a woman is pastor. My cultural background is so biased in this way... But.. I do see the arguments others use, and I understand them.. but this is my struggle.. this is why I rarely debate it here.. I am reading, but learning...

    The other area is eschatology.. .I grew up Pretrib.. premill.. but I see the points the amills have, and have probablly moved to a mid-trib POV. But I won't debate it.. because I am still learning.

    When a person stops learning, or thinks they have all the doctrines in the Bible nailed down, they have quit growing in Christ.

    This is a journey..

    OK, enough of my sissy ranting! Someone might call me a woman!
     
  12. canadyjd

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    Jim, I don't consider scripture to be rubbish and I am sure you don't either.

    I base what I believe on the clear teaching of scripture. You see it differently, which is just fine.

    I don't appreciate your broad brush of "Chauvenism, pure and simple" especially when it just isn't true.

    I expect better from you.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    I get it TinyTim, why don't you be brave and just come out with thefact that you are a Johnny Cash fan and want to hear his song, A Boy Called Sue...............:applause:

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. Gina B

    Gina B
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    I'd never call you a woman! But I might hit you with Jim's purse! :tongue3:

    I have clearly seen what you speak of, but have also seen those who appear to honestly believe that male and female roles are being reversed. My hope is to gently break the news that this isn't so by asking them to point out exactly which roles these are and where they're found in the Word.

    Too often people simply believe what they're told and just need to be asked an easy question in order to show them they've made a mistake and to encourage them to check stuff out on their own before they accept it.
     
  15. gb93433

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    I agree. The reason they have not struggled with anything, is because they have not struggled with any work. If they did, their theology would blow up in their face. That is the reason why a church should never hire a pastor who has not been tried in the crucible of life by making disciples. The disciples they make is the proof of their ministry.
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Years ago I would tell other Christians that my family believed in Women's Liberation. I always got some strange looks. Then I told them that I grew up on a dairy farm and all of us worked until the job was done.
     
  17. canadyjd

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    Leadership roles. I Tim. 2.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. Gina B

    Gina B
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    I'm aware of that passage. It appears to be him saying that he was not permitting women to teach men or have authority over men during church assemblies.

    If taken to mean "forever," this denies women two roles in the church - teaching adult males and making decisions about men in the church.

    Even that is not a solid matter, as many would argue that Paul was addressing a problem that had to do with that particular culture in that specific time, which can be backed up by his tacit endorsement of females praying and prophesying in 1 Corinthians and examples we have in the past of females in leadership roles.

    But let's say he's really saying that the rules changed. God changed His mind and told Paul to tell everyone from then on that women could no longer teach men in the church or make decisions concerning the men who were in leadership roles.

    I'm really not aware of many females teaching adult males in our Baptist churches, nor of men who refuse to step up and take the role of pastor in our church assemblies, forcing women into this position.

    Besides, there is nothing in there that says a woman can do it if a man refuses, if one insists on interpreting it to mean this rule went beyond those times.

    So there are a few questions.

    1. Please show that this restriction was given of the Lord for time and eternity from that day forth.

    2. For those who say it's only appropriate if a man refuses, show where that is said AFTER this new law came into effect.

    3. For those who don't believe it was a new law, please explain female leaders/prophesying females that apparently acted with God's blessing before this time.
     
  19. Marcia

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    Gina, teaching and prophesying are different roles.

    God does give a reason for the not teaching, and it's not because women were misbehaving or a cultural thing. It goes back to Adam and Eve, and to the order of creation. I believe jdcanady referred to this.

    1 Tim. 2:
    11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.

    12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
     
  20. canadyjd

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    I didn't say it was "forever". It is only until our Lord Jesus returns.

    I'm not sure why you are equating "making decisions about" with "having authority over". I'd rather just stick to what the passage says.

    I do agree with you, however, that the command in I Tim. is specific to and limited to the fellowship.
    It is a solid matter in my mind. The passage is clear IMHO. Praying and prophesying are not the same as teaching and exercising authority over men (as Marcia stated).
    I suspect there wouldn't be much talk concerning the issue if it wasn't happening in our churches.
    An argument from silence is always a weak argument.
    I didn't say it was for all eternity....just until our Lord Jesus returns.
    Since Paul bases the command on the creation and the fall, it is not a new law. The command has been around since Adam and Eve.
    Maybe you could be more specific. Again, prophesying is not the same as teaching and having authority.

    I do remember a passage in Judges where the men had little faith and God allowed a woman prophetess to lead the army in order to shame the men. It seems she was somewhat relunctant, if I remember correctly. Is that what you are talking about?

    peace to you:praying:
     

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