Featured Are Mormons Biblical Christians?

First of all I'm not asking you to answer anything. However, if you want to comment just read the post. (See the bottom of my post.)

WM

 

I did read it.
Here is what you posted. I will answer it part by part:

Sufficient, yes; efficacious to all those that believe.

No it doesn't. The Bible has synonyms for various places.
Sheol was simply the place of the departed dead. It actually included Paradise and hell. It is the Hebrew used mostly translated hell, and sometimes translated grave.
Hades is the Greek word translated hell.
There is no netherworld. And as I mentioned the Paradise was part of Sheol which ceased to exist after the cross.

To put it nice and politely: bunk! and hogwash!
Paul did not speak of individual's in that passage but an individual's works. No individual passed through any fire. That is not an explanation of Purgatory but it is the Judgement Seat of Christ yet to take place in the future.

--There is no hint of Purgatory here. A man's works shall be tried, not the man himself. He will either lose or gain reward according to his works. This passage also speaks of eternal security of the believer or OSAS.

No matter what happens, all that are here are saved. They don't go through any purification. They don't go through any fire. Even if they lose all reward they are saved from fire or hell. That is what the expression means. "yet so as by fire," referring to the fires of hell, they will be saved from that.

The Greek scholar Robertson says of this passage:

You say:

Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
--I am a just man made perfect right now. How is that?
The day I got saved I was justified in the sight of God or made just.
I was sanctified positionally, and have been "maturing" ever since.
The word perfect means complete or mature. Every Christian is complete in Christ. All we have is in Christ. We are complete in him. Our perfection therefore is in Christ. We need nothing more. That is what it means.

This is a sin that is impossible to commit in this day and age. You have to read the entire context to know what it means.
--The episode started much earlier when Jesus performed a miracle casting out a demon of one that was deaf and dumb. This miracle attested to his deity. See the reaction of the people.

Matthew 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
--The term "son of David" is a term reserved for the Messiah. They too knew that only God could do such miracles.

What was the Pharisees response?
Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
--They attributed this miracle to Satan. Beelzebub is a name for another god, "The Lord of the Flies." They did not recognize Christ as God. They did not recognize that the miracles he did was by the power of the Holy Spirit, but attributed them to another spirit, an evil spirit.

A conversation follows. Jesus rebukes them. And then he says:
Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
--They would not be forgiven this sin. They were attributing the very miracles that they saw with their own eyes, while Jesus was speaking in the flesh right before them, to an evil spirit. That can't be duplicated today. That is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is.
The world to come (for them) is found in Rev.20:15-20. It is called the Great White Throne Judgement. No one will find forgiveness there.

It doesn't help you. There is no doctrine of Purgatory. It is a heretical blasphemous doctrine that is an attack on the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

 

Well, since we are expressing our "beliefs" I belive that TS made a compelling case and provided an excellent rebuttal to the "others".

Let me be clear! These words are yours alone: "... because Christ's sacrifice didn't work in this life." No one has said that here but you and perhaps DHK.

On the contrary - scripture does provide a basis for the doctrine and this has been demonstrated. You just choose to ignore it.

Here...
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1827785&postcount=91

WM

 

Looks like I have to take this step by step. You'll not see the term "purgatory" in the scriptures just like you won't see the term "Trinity", or the "Incarnation", or "Original Sin" in the scriptures however all these consepts can be derived at from Scriptures.

The first step I will take to quell the mythology believed by many about Purgatory is that IT IS NOT THE BELIEF THAT THERE IS A SECOND CHANCE AFTER OUR MORTAL BODIES DIE. NOR IS IT THE BELIEF THAT IT IS A PLACE WHERE WE CAN PRAY PEOPLE OUT OF HELL. PEOPLE IN HELL NEVER GO TO PURGATORY. THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT ARE IN PURGATORY ARE THOSE ON THEIR WAY TO HEAVEN.

Step two. What is Purgatory about? SANCTIFICATION. IT IS NOT ABOUT SINS JESUS CANNOT FORGIVE OR HAS NOT TAKEN CARE OF BY HIS BLOOD. PURGATORY IS THE STATE OF PURIFICATION OF AN IMPERFECT LOVE.

How is Purgatory arrived at by Scripture. Ok, I will explain. You will either agree or disagree. Since, I have no control over anyone I'm just offering this up as a support. You guys disagree about everything with each other why would it be any different with me? You guys don't agree to meanings of scripture with each other so I don't expect you to agree with the interpretation I'm giving you for these text but that are used to derive the conspet of purgatory.

Jesus commanded us to be perfect like his father in heaven

Generally, it is agreed by protestants that nobody can be perfect like God even after people "accept Jesus as their personal savior" to coin your phrase. The question naturally arises does this mean that Jesus' blood was insufficient? Of course you don't believe that! However, Protestants quickly overlook this passage as being impossible to acheive or therefore look at it as a suggestion. A kind of get as close as you can to the ideal. However, Jesus gives us an obligation by this verse. Since I defined Purgatory as a state of purification of an inperfect love the question to you with Matthew in mind is: do you have a perfect love for and of God? If your answer is yes Purgatory is not for you. You aren't going there. But if your answer is no then what does scripture say? Hebrew 12:1 says

It is clear it is not only sin that prevents us from being all we can but there are those things that hinder our perfect love of God which includes our sin. Are you perfectly obedient to God. Do you have no attitudes, perspectives, actions, behaviors, ect that keep you from God. Most of us do if not all. At this point can we agree what we are talking about is SANCTIFICATION? What does Paul say in 2 Cor 7?

Paul also says in Phil 3:12

So its clear from Pauls writings that we must purify ourselves from those things that contaminate us in order to perfect our holiness. We also know from scripture that nothing impure will enter heaven. Rev. 21:27

and even though Christians will go to heaven we know that our deeds are still judged

and we know this verse applies to "saved" Christians to coin your term not mine. because the WE spoken of is shown who that is in the previous verse

Certainly the passage is speaking of Christians not the "unsaved". The question naturally follows well what happens on account of our bad deeds? Well, Paul says in 1 Cor 3:13

certainly those deeds will not make the scrutiny of the test of fire. but in verse 15

Yet the person is saved though the deeds are burned and the person escapes through the flame the consuming fire. So Paul is telling us those of us christians on their way to heaven with bad deeds will approach Jesus through the flames. There is more but I'm out of time. Anyway I think that is a good starter for the consept and primer for the belief.

 

Our sanctification is on this earth: positionally and practically.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
--There is nothing you can do to alter this fact. Once you are dead, you are dead. What is done on earth is done. It either heaven or hell. Your chances are over. Even a believer's chances are over. He cannot better his life any more. It is done; it is over. After this; the judgment. There is no purgatory.

No such thing.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
It is over. I will stress it over and over again. There is no intermediate state. It is heaven or hell. There is nothing you can do to better your life. All the sanctifying you can do is done on earth. You have had your chance. There is no purgatory. It is a figment of your imagination (or someone's imagination). They have you brainwashed.

Will these Scriptures be used in the context they are given?

What does the word perfect mean? Did you ever study it out.
I am perfect. I have a perfect standing before God. The word means complete. I am complete in Christ.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

We don't look over anything. I am perfect before God. When God looks down and sees me, he sees the righteousness of Christ that covers me. He does not see a single sin. They are all under the blood. I am eternally secure in his hand. He has perfected me. The blood of Christ has cleansed me from all sin. I don't have to make up mythological stories to cover my loop-holes in misunderstood theology.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--It is quite simple, actually.

Heb.12:1 is speaking to believers not unbelievers. It is speaking of running the race. It in no way speaks of anyone losing their salvation.

God does not require perfection or sinlessness to enter heaven. That is your mistake.

No, we can't.

I was made pure, sanctified, righteous, complete, justified, the day I trusted Christ, and will remain that way until He takes me home. I don't have to live in the fear of RCC heretical dogma.

We lose reward, not salvation.

The person does not go through fire. It doesn't say that. Why do you read that into that passage. The works go through fire not the person. He is saved, yet so as by fire. He is saved even though his works are burned up with fire. That is the meaning. He never went through any fire.

GARBAGE!!

Good for nothing, but the garbage heap. It is heresy. There is nothing in here that is biblical whatsoever.

 

If any religion has blatant, plain contradictions in it's own manuscripts, documents, any statements actually, and unquestionably recorded by its main leadership, and these writings etc, are claimed to be directly inspired by an infallible god, it is probably time to ditch it and start a new search. I'm not talking about some minor questionable differences
in a couple of numbers or dates. The Book of Mormon and "Doctrine and Covenants" have a Major, Plain contradiction pertaining to having multiple wives.


http://www.bible.ca/mor-Ezek-prophecy.htm



Doctrine & Covenants / Section 132
Revelation through Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded on July 12, 1843. History of the Church 5:501-7.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines-
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same……. 59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

Jacob Chapter 2
Jacob denounces the love of riches, pride, and unchastity—Men may seek riches to help their fellowmen—Jacob condemns the unauthorized practice of plural marriage—The Lord delights in the chastity of women. About 544–421 B.C.



23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing awhoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and aSolomon truly had many bwives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And bwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes.


"I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
"24 Behold, David and aSolomon truly had many bwives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

 

Exactly. After this is the judgement! Didn't I say quoting scripture?

and didn't I say that on account of these actions as we are before the Judgement of Jesus Christ (I'm speaking of Christians here not non-christian) where Paul says

This is during the Judgement. Its a purification by fire as the scripture text clearly shows.

You haven't listen to what I said. You are propigating the myth rather than dealing with the actual dogma. I never said there was no judgement. I never said what on earth isn't done. I said we are purified by God through fire as Paul clearly teaches in the text I quoted.

and I will stress again that we are speaking about judgement and sanctification. There is no departure from that.

You don't believe in the resurrection of our bodies? That really is a heresy!

You can take that up with Peter and Paul and the scriptures for clearly Paul is speaking about our Judgement

absolutely!

Yes I did. The Greek word used is τέλειος or Teleios which means these things: Wanting nothing, completeness, that which is perfect, consumate human integrity and virtue. Did you?

I am perfect. So you have a perfect love for God? You never sin? You never disobey?

OH your standing is perfect but you are not? So you admit there can be more sanctification done in your life?

You are funny! Of course you are complete in Christ but thats not the context of the passage the passage says to be complete and perfect in cosumate integrity and virtue like God. Have you reached this perfection? No. That's ok though neither have I. I'm still working on it are you?

which has no relation to Matthew 5:48. Its a different subject all together.

No you are not. You already admitted what is perfect is your standing not you. If you still sin. You aren't perfect. God wants you to stop sinning. And he provides the means for you to do it not by covering it up like snow over dung. That only covers the dung it still smells and squishes when you step in it. But by giving you the Holy Spirit and the Grace to overcome it.

You are confusing two things attonment and sanctification. Sanctification is the topic of Purgatory as it is only for the elect.

Again you confuse attonment and sanctification. You fail to ask the question why does God save you? The answer of course is to redeem you and restore to you your right qualities. You can't even be sanctified if it not had been for the attonment. Therefore you are now free to choose what is right rather than not. Thus you can be sanctified.

My point Attonment vs. Sanctification confussion. God wants us to live rightly and by the power of Jesus blood we can. However, sadly we often don't choose to do so.

This is a non sequitur. Of course its only speaking about believers! I never said other wise! Obviously you have a ready comphrension issue. Note what I said once again

It is clear I am directing this to believers. And note I never said anything about loosing salvation in Purgatory again note what I actually said

No its St. Johns mistake if indeed it is Rev 21: 27

That just means despite what you are told of the truth of the doctrine you want to believe a doctrine that doesn't exist an imaginary purgatory doctrine where it has to do with attonment and salvation. You are wrong.

Again you confuse attonment with sanctification. By saying that you are sanctified does that mean you don't sin at all? Because that is exactly what you are saying.

This is also a non sequitur. Have I ever told you to live in fear of RCC dogma? Is there anything in this to fear? Not at all. I don't fear purgatory! I rejoice in it!

Thats not what Paul says. He says you go through the fire. And again a non sequitur because purgatory never suggest you lose salvation and I never said anyone in purgatory loses salvation. Once again you created a false argument in suggesting a dogma that doesn't exist. The RCC doesn't believe in purgatory the way you've suggested it exist. Therefore your argument doesn't work. You are making a false dogma to support a false position.

because that is what it says

You know I treat you a lot better than you treat me. I never say you are garbage and I don't call you names. However, you give perfect example of the extent of your christian charity. I don't even say you are a heretic though I think its a common accusation by you of everyone who disagrees with you baptist or not.

 

why would there be a need for it, since the blodd of jesus, gods Son, atoned/paid for ALL sin, and fully cleanses us?

Isn't holding that that doctrine really placing one in a position of trampling underfoot the precious blood of jesus, making null the cross?

Adding my works to purify myself to his Grace?

 

I have quoted to you a Greek scholar. I have thoroughly explained context. I have showed you where the verse itself says that no one, absolutely no one goes through fire. Where is the lack of comprehension here. It is the works that are tried by fire not the person. Those works that are compared to wood, hay and stubble will be burnt up. Those works that are compared to gold, silver and precious stones will be purified. The former is a loss of reward; the latter is a reward. No one goes through fire. Works go through fire. When one's works are burnt up through the fire the man is still saved yet as (even though) his works are burnt up by fire. It has nothing to do with him going through a fire. No person goes through a fire. To read or interpolate that into that passage is to wrest the Scripture out of context as false teachers do to their own destruction. (2Pet.3:16)

Neither did I.
The doctrine of purgatory is garbage, and all of its associated doctrines are heretical and garbage. I did not call you any names, but rather the heretical doctrine.

It is my Christian duty to contend for the faith, and to demonstrate that heretical doctrines as purgatory are indeed heresy. But note well that I did not refer to you personally as an heretic. Why are you making these accusations against me? I disdain the RCC doctrine. You know that very well. What have I said against you?

 

Both 'Thinkingstuff' and WestminsterMan have shown compeling reasons for believing in Purgatory. The concept of purgatory is Biblical. People first started not believing in Purgatory at the time of the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther was a fearful man who did not see this purging process as mercy. He believed that a person goes to heaven with the residue of sin still with him, but it is covered over so that it cannot be seen. I can believe Martin Luther who believed that we go to Heaven with the residue of sin or I can believe the Bible that says “But nothing unclean will enter it.”

 

There wasn't one compelling reason they gave.
Show me in the Bible where there is an intermediate state, some place other than heaven and hell. They can't do that.
If a person believes in Christ; trusts him as his Savior, then all his sin is put under the blood. That is a concept that they don't understand. See 1John 1:7.

 

Thus you have shown your true authority! Rather than relying on scripture alone you quote a scholar in your tradition. Certainly I can quote scholars in my tradition. You have just proven you are not sola scriptura. You aren't relling on what the passage actually says but a leader in your theology. Hmmm. That is your Tradition.

As have I.

you haven't scriptures say the opposite as I have shown you.

The scriptures say "Saved through the flames" That is clear. No disagreement about works being burned up.

You are pulling two verses from two books and acting as though they are one. Note what is purified and compared to gold? faith. Here are your two verses 1 Cor 3:13 and 1 Peter 1:7. One speaks about works and deeds the other deals with faith. You treat them as they are the same passge. Not Kosher!

Again that is not what the passage says.

Nope nothing about reward. So where do you get your reward idea? Well, the proceeding verses speaking about witnessing and rewards for it says

which has to do with co working with God and witnessing rather than dealing with our bad deeds which are the subject of verse 13-15. Its not a loss of reward. No reward was granted for those actions at all. Its about sanctification. Or more rightly Purgation. Note what Paul says

It is clear here that we are sanctifing ourselves while away from the body! Clearly!

.

No problem with you contending for the faith even as I have. However, you can contend for the faith in love. I perceived that you called me garbage. Though you explained that wasn't you intent and I accept it.

 

It is not tradition. Robertson is a Greek scholar. He knows more than I on the subject. I quoted him.
Sola Scriptura means that the Bible is our final authority in all things of faith and practice. It does not mean we cannot reference other works such as dictionaries, encyclopedias and other authoritative works. The Bible is our final authority.

There is no Scripture that says any person goes through a fire. Why pretend that there is?

Quote the Scripture that says that. In 1Cor3. It says "saved as though by fire," not saved through fire. So just where are you getting this nonsense?

I never referenced 1Peter 1:7 at all. You are confused.

The entire passage in 1Cor.3:11ff is about reward and loss of reward.
Wood, hay, stubble are burned up in the fire. One loses their reward.
Gold, silver, precious stones, are purified in the fire. They don't burn. That is what is symbolic of one's reward.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
--The passage speaks of rewards. This is clear.

You are clearly wrong. There is nothing about sanctification here. This is the judgment seat of Christ. The believer will receive reward or loss of reward. Look at verse 13 above. He shall receive a reward. Why is that hard to understand?

The first part of verse 15
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
--He shall suffer loss of reward. This is all about reward. There is nowhere that suggests any person will go through a fire.
There is not one verse in Scripture that teaches or suggests the heretical concept of Purgatory.

Our sins were paid in full on the cross. Christ suffered and paid the penalty in full. To suggest in any way that we still have to be "purged" it to suggest that the work of Christ was not sufficient, that his blood was insufficient and was not able to cover all our sins. That is blasphemous.

He paid the penalty of all my sins: past, present and future. There is no further need of purging. I have been 100% purged, cleansed by His blood.

 

HP: Eternal life with Christ is the reward of the believer. Let's see. Loss of reward would be.......

 

That is where you are wrong. That may be the way a Pelagian may think, but eternal life is not a reward.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom.6:23).

Jesus said to lay up your treasure (reward) in heaven where moth and rust cannot corrupt. That certainly does not refer to eternal life. They are the works that we do for Christ on this earth. However the works done with the wrong motivation, the wrong heart, will burn up as wood, hay and stubble. There will be the loss of reward. A man will not lose his salvation because of this, only his reward.

 

Courtney may or may not have decided whether Mormons are True Christians, but by now she probably is convinced that most Christians know a lot about purgatory!

 

DHK,

The reward is an inheritance.

Colossians 3:14 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Is not the reward the inheritance of eternal life?

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In case you still are not sure the inheritance is eternal life, which is our reward, please consider these scriptures, there should be no more doubt after reading them.

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25[ The Parable of the Good Samaritan ] On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

The REWARD is an INHERITANCE, and the INHERITANCE is ETERNAL LIFE.