Are musical styles amoral? Round 2.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Jordan Kurecki, Aug 9, 2014.

  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    The Spirit of God came upon Saul as the music was played. 1 Samuel 10:5-11 "After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy: (6) And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. (7) And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. (8) And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and show thee what thou shalt do. (9) And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. (10) And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. (11) And it came to pass, when all that knew him formerly saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?"

    This is an interesting account because we see that a person can come under spiritual influence through the music that they are listening to. In this case it was the Spirit of God that came upon Saul. The music itself without words invited God's presence, infilling, and empowering. Music opens a person's spirit to have the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit influence and control their heart. It is the music, not the text that does this. Music gives "ground" or a "stronghold", or a place in our heart to those in the spirit world. This is significant because music that we are listening to can be speaking to evil spirits through the music alone.

    There is music that evil spirits do not like.1 Samuel 16:14-23 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (15) And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. (16) Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on a harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. (17) And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. (18) Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him. (19) Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep. (20) And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. (21) And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. (22) And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favor in my sight. (23) And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took a harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

    There is music that evil spirits do not like. When that music, without words, was played the evil spirit left. This is significant because not only does music alone without words invite those in the spirit realm, it can also cause them to leave.

    There are several accounts in the Bible where ungodly music was used in worship. One of those is in Exodus 32:15-20 "And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. (16) And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables. (17) And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. (18) And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear. (19) And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and broke them beneath the mount. (20) And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it."
    Joshua and Moses had difficulty recognizing the music from a distance as music. They described it as noise and war. It must have been something like we have today when a car goes past playing loud rock music. It sounds more like the car is falling apart than music, because the sound melody gets lost a short distance from the car, and what you hear mainly is the beat.

    Music that God Dislikes
    It is important to realize that there is music that God does not like. Just because God created music does not mean that He likes all music. Some music God calls noise.
    In Isaiah 14:11 in talking about Babylon, God says, "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."
    The viol was an instrument with a bow. And was the forerunner of the violin family of instruments. God describes the music that they played on it as noise! God enjoys music, but He did not like Babylon's music.
    God does not like all music used to worship Him. In Amos 5:21-23 God says, "I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. (22) Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. (23) Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols."
    There is some "Godly" music that God will not listen to even though the words are worshiping Him. This passage is addressing their religious holidays and worship times. It was not the words, it was the music itself – the instrumental music that was noise (and God likes instrumental music). The music was so repulsive to God that He commanded them to take it away from Him.
    These were sincere "religious" people, they were longing for the day of the Lord v18, but their heart, worship, and music was not right. This passage answers the question: "Does putting Christian words to any kind of music make the music Christian or Godly music?" The answer is no. We may enjoy the music but God may not.

    from http://www.biblicalr...musicamoral.php
     
  2. Jordan Kurecki

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    so do you all think that music without words is amoral (Without morality)

    I think the above examples are very clear that this is absolutely not the case.
     
  3. ktn4eg

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    I would tend to believe that in most cases music without words is amoral. IOW, music per se is neither inherently "moral" nor "immoral" in the sense of how the Bible would define those two terms.

    To me, it all depends on just how a particular musical work is used.

    A case in point taken from the classical music genre follows:

    The second movement marked adagio of Haydn's so-called "Emperor" string quartet (Opus 76, #3), has a melody that went on to become sort of the national anthem for the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Eventually this melody morphed into what's now known as the national anthem of Germany [Deutschland, Deutschland, Ober Alles --- "Germany, Germany, Over All"].

    As such, this tune was one of the favorite songs of the intensely anti-Semitic Adolph Hitler---the person who was ultimately responsible for the murder of millions of Jews and untold numbers of innocent civilians and military personnel in World War 2.

    On the other hand, this very same melody became the tune for a famous hymn, "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken."

    So....was this music that Haydn composed inherently "moral" or was it inherently "immoral"?
     
  4. JonC

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    your view approaches the pagan ANE thought of manipulating the gods. But no, I don't think it was not the music that displeased God. God was not displeased because they played their own tune, but because they marched to the beat of their own drum.

    That said, I don't believe that all music is amoral. Some music, IMHO, is deliberately dark. The argument that most often arises here, of course, centers around CCM (which is typically not the music of our culture...not worldly...but not traditional either).
     
  5. righteousdude2

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    This is a great question .... and I hope my response helps you in a small, but significant way!

    I do agree that people can come under the influence of the music they listen to! For more than 27 years, my wife and I had a very popular music ministry, here in the Southern California area! We were scheduled for almost every Friday or Saturday evening, and either Sunday morning or evening.

    What made our ministry so popular was our ability to rewrite the words to classic oldies but goodies. We were told at every ministry date, that from the first song, most of the people were hooked, and they found the familiarity of the tunes with uplifting words that praised the Lord and ministered in its message, was what had people clapping their hands and stomping their feet, and from the first song to the last, with my testimony placed right before the last song, we were seeing the alters filled up every time we played.

    Be it a church, church ministry and outreach group, Christian school, youth camp, or men's and women's ministry groups like Aglow and Full Gospel Businessman; our ministry successfully crossed over denominational lines, with ease.

    I have to say that people do get caught up in the music they listen to, and if it has a Christ centered message, no matter what it is, it can reach hearts and break down walls, which in turn allows the Holy Spirit to freely convict and prompt the individual to decide to turn and follow Jesus!

    I honestly believe that if the message is good, within the music presented, it can reach people for Jesus. O music was as much fun as it was convicting, but more importantly, it opened the door to my testimony, the one I finally wrote a book about, and it was spiritually effective.

    That is my opinion, and it comes from personal experience!

    Of course, had it not been for the background tapes of these songs, we'd never have been so successful! We did play with a live band on ocassion, and I loved that because of the freedom to take liberties with the songs that a background tape doesn't allow! And the bands, usually the worship team band from the churches we returned to, loved to play for us too!

    Of course, Im not into the rap or hip hop stuff. But, if it has an audience and the fruit is evidenced, than again, who am I to judge it! If it reaches the heart and turns people around for the Kingdom, more power to it!
     
  6. righteousdude2

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    Again, it is a personal thing ....

    I happen to love my music experiences when words are not used. In my case, all those tunes from my era are soothing and help me to relax. In fact, I have a fur disk set of all the songs from the fifties and sixties that were classified as instrumental hits! They in no way give me evil thoughts, or amoral/immoral thoughts. They are just something that relax and soothe me, and in a way, take me back to times where things were not as bad as they are today!
     
  7. Aaron

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    No. Music is an intelligent act. It is a mode of human interaction. All acts are either good or evil.
     
  8. questdriven

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    While I was quite active in the previous threads on this subject, following this post I likely won't post much if at all in this thread this time around. I'm attending classes now, and prefer to spend the free time I get doing other things.


    Would say that in order for one to make a solid Biblical case against music, they would need to find a passage where the context is specifically about what music is and is not considered appropriate.
    The ones I see cited here, especially in the last two paragraphs, are not specifically about music. Or, more correctly, the driving point of the passage isn't about what music is and is not acceptable.

    The first passage cited, I Samuel 10--
    That the prophets would be playing music was part of the description telling Saul what to look for. It has little if anything to do with the passage otherwise.

    The passage cited in I Samuel 16--
    Well, yes, some music can be very calming. Here's something to consider: perhaps it was moreso the calming/relaxing effect the music had on Saul's anxiety that allowed the demon to leave for a short time, as opposed to the idea that demons don't like holy music. We aren't even told whether the music David was playing or not was necessarily worship/praise music--it might have just been some pleasant compositions he came up with.

    The passage cited from Exodus 32--
    Again, the music had very little to do with the passage, other than that Moses and Joshua noticed it. Obviously they were singing praises to a false god--or so it is safe to assume anyway--and obviously that's wrong. But otherwise, nothing in the passage infers that the music itself (apart from the words) was considered evil. The point is that the people were worshiping a false god, not that they were playing demon music.
    (Also, "noise" doesn't have to be in a negative context, especially considering the usage of words change over time and how people spoke back when the KJV was translated. Any sound, pleasant or not, good or bad, can be described as a noise.)

    The passage cited from Isaiah 14--
    Would say this is purely descriptive language, ie, creating a setting, mood, in order to get a point across. Once again, the context is not music itself.

    I think the author is specifically missing the point of the passage in Amos 5. Think about it. What is God displeased about in this chapter, what's the context?
    Let's refer to the verse in Samuel that reads "Obedience is better than sacrifice." This doesn't mean that God hates sacrifice, but that the thing that truly matters is the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
    From my reading of the verses in Amos, and a peak at the entire chapter, it appears to have a similar context there. It seems to be saying "You may be doing all of this, but if you don't really mean it, it's pointless and You're not obeying Me."
    Makes me think of Revelation 3:15-16. "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."


    Thus I do not see how these passages infer that it's the music style that's the problem rather than the way it is used.


    Music affecting people's moods/the Holy Spirit speaking through music--true, it is the purpose of music to express moods and emotions, just as any medium of art. (And I'll go ahead and add that negative themes have a legitimate place in art as well. They can be present and have a purpose in being present without actually promoting things that are wrong.)

    I've seen God use music both to speak to me, and others. This includes hymns, Southern gospel, CCM, or even the harder stuff that mainstream CCM doesn't really get into for the most part. I find "Beautiful Scars" by Disciple to be a very worshipful song. (And yes, I know the difference between enjoying the music and being moved by the Holy Spirit through it.)
     
    #8 questdriven, Aug 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2014
  9. quantumfaith

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    Good observations and analysis. Thanks for sharing.
     
  10. preachinjesus

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    We had a Christian rapper in our services today and were greatly edified by his ministry.

    Music is not immoral.
     
  11. Magnetic Poles

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    This thread is a prime example of how people go way off the ranch with inane ideas that have no basis in fact. Next debate: Does God hate Microsoft Windows.

    :rolleyes:
     
  12. Don

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    I've re-read the opening post three times; and I have to say, it's the most amazing example of isogesis I've seen.
     
  13. JonC

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    :thumbsup: I agree.
     
  14. Magnetic Poles

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  15. Don

    Don
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  16. corndogggy

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    Probably so to be honest. I hear he likes Linux.
     
  17. preachinjesus

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    Probably. I mean, what all good, all knowing, all powerful Being allows Windows 8.0 to be released to the general public and while also letting the Office Suite be the primary tool for businesses across the world.

    ;)

    I did have a fundamentalist, in one of my former churches, who was convinced the Apple Logo was a sign of Satan...the bite mark and all. :D
     
  18. Magnetic Poles

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    That reminds me...I once heard a wacky preacher say that the old Lucent logo was a Satanic ring of fire...and that the company name was short for "Lucifer's Enterprise".
    CLICK HERE to see this evil design. Haha.
     
  19. sag38

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    The op has stretch marks all over it. Good grief! I think someone has been reading too much of Bill Gothard's rubbish.
     
  20. Jerome

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    Recent sermon by the President of Baptist College of Ministry:

    05/04/2014, Dr. Wayne Van Gelderen, Jr., Ephesians 5:19, "Spiritual Music"

    @33:30

    "We've got to be very careful not to have the worship of the golden-calf-type music in our lives. Anything that reflects this world.

    You think about it, music of this world really does reflect the religions of this world.

    In the Orient, the dissonant and unresolved is like Buddhism and others is that haunting religion that goes from cycle to cycle with nothing really meaningful.

    Or you have the pulsating rhythm of tribal music which has the supernatural passions of the cultic rites and Satanic rites.

    Or in the Western world, our humanism and sensuality with the seduction and suggestiveness of our music.

    Make no mistake nothing is neutral, and music is usually called, is a call to worship one way or the other and Satan has been a master in the Western world of combining music really from different cultures to bring in that kind of music in which Satan can easily cause us to forget God and do what we want to do."
     

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