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Are Para-church Ministries Biblical?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Tom Butler, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    I have come full circle on this. I used to think Bible colleges and christian schools should all be under a local church.

    Now I believe just the opposite.
    I believe the church has been given pretty specific roles and these are not part of it.

    Also with regards to church schools they often interfere with the parents duty to educate their children in the way they see best.

    I am thankful that my church does not have a school and there are students in CHristian schools, Home Schooled and in publics schools.

    A while back we also hosted a blood drive at our church which was a way to be involved in the community but it was not our church that did it of course, it was whatever organization does that around here.

    ANyway I believe that the church should focus on it's core ministry and encourage it's members to be involved in these other things that are neither mandatory or prohibited.
     
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I think an individual or group may run a private school or other kinds of public benefit operations (e.g. soup kitchen) legitimally without it being under the auspices of a local church. [edit: That's not to say that a Church cannot operate a private school.)

    I think doctrinal ministries such as The Bible Answer Man and Answers in Genesis should be under the authority of a local church.

    I say that because, as I see the Scriptures, things like fasting, prayer, and the giving of alms are private devotions; and things like prophecy and teaching are operations of the Spirit for the congregation.

    That's my opinion. I haven't boiled this issue down as much as I have others. So I could be wrong. (It isn't likely, but I could be. ;))
     
    #22 Aaron, Sep 5, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2009
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    That's up to the individuals or groups running them. If I had a soup kitchen, there would be the presentation of the Gospel, just as I present the Gospel almost everyday to my friends at my workplace.
     
  4. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Here's how my church did it. A young man who felt called to evangelism joined our church and placed himself under its authority. He was not paid staff, although individual church members did give him some financial support. He was designated as the church's Staff Evangelist.

    He kept the church informed of his activities and reported to the church following the revivals in which he preached.

    The young evangelist made himself accountable to the church and placed himself under the tutelage of the pastor, who was a former evangelist.

    None
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    How many local churches do you know of that are making disciples in the middle of the ocean on a naval ship? How many local churches are on military bases making disciples with military personnel? Are 100% of the churches in your town making disciples? If not then why leave discipleship up to 100% of the churches?
     
  6. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    When I was overseas, we had many IFB and SBC churches off base, and many chapels have denomination services officiated by military chaplains (in addition to their Protestant duties) and services held by personnel in the military who were ordained ministers but were not chaplains.

    As far as I know, I would say if two or three are gathered, they could have a church!
     
  7. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    If you got a one way ticket to the moon, you could be in a place where you were not irritated by local churches or the SBC.

    [​IMG]

    Since you did not answer the previous question, I will ask it again. How much time did you serve in the military? Have you ever been on a US Naval vessel? If not, why are you talking about them?

    [​IMG]
     
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Again I ask, "Did Jesus die for you?"

    Did you read the OP and what came afterward? If you would take some time to read the posts then perhaps you might know more about what is being discussed.
     
  9. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Jesus never got irritated or angry?
     
  10. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    In the NT, two basic things made Jesus angry. One was the Pharisees and their self righteous outward appearance, and being rotton to the core on the inside. The second thing was people trying to make a dishonest profit off the church.

    Now, what that has to do with this op, your crusade against the local church, or the SBC, I do not know. In fact, there is probably no connection. You might as soon have asked, is the sky pink?
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Exactly my point. Check out the BFA and what happened in AZ.They were using gifts money from local churches to get a return on the money that was given for ministry and then it failed. Doesn't that sound like money changers in the temple? That sort of thing failed in another state in the SBC. Shouldn't that have been their example even if they had failed to know their Bible?

    Read about the SBC folks in MO suing each other. Where are those who have any boldness and call it what it is? Have those people been so lulled to sleep that they have become complacent and do not care? If I read my Bible right, judgment begins in the house of God. I have said nothing new that has not been known for many years. Peter Lord proclaimed the same message in about 1974 and Dr. Albert Mohler did recently at SBTS. Can you explain how people sitting around watching the SBC folks in MO use each other is anything other than ungodliness and unbiblical?

    I fail to understand how my response to another post has to do with any crusade against any local churches. It is more of a pragmatic response about how people are reached. I have several friends who are chaplains and love that ministry. They are not employed by any local church. When they are in a war they minister to soldiers and the local U.S. church is not present and has no ministry aboard that ship.

    My aim has always been to build the local body. I have led a ministry in the local church since I was a Christian for one month. Why do you think I apply what I learned from the parachurch organization in the local church? If it were up to the local church I attended I am quite sure I would be just as bound for hell as I was then until I was given the gospel from a student involved in the same parachruch organization on campus. He too had attended a local church before he came to college.

    A few days ago I heard a young lady talk about how she had grown up in a "religious" home and went to a "religious" church and a private "religious" college and did not know God until someone on campus taught her to walk with God and know Him and not just about Him. The fact is that some of the local churches are led by non-Christian pastors. It is a fact that many of those involved in parachurch organizations grew up in those kind of churches or did not attend church at all. I am not willing to leave the evangelism of the U.S. to a few churches. Some local churches are doing a great job. The local church I attend recognizes the impact that parachurch organizations have on the local university campus and they are working together to reach students and transition them into real life once they graduate. A number of students would not attend a church but they will attend parachurch organization Bible studies and then attend a Bible believing church later once they realize what the Bible teaches.

    Fortunately the local church I attend does not have to deal with any negative news coming from local churches. The pastor clearly understands discipleship. It is a pleasure to have him here. The pastor search committee clearly stated that they did not want an orator but one who knew how to make disciples. Personally I believe he is "one in a million."
     
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    That is a great testimony about your church. It sounds like your pastor is a very wise man. I have seen that done and I taught some men myself but it seems so few recognize those whose ministry is evangelism.
     
  13. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    No doubt the where you were saved is very important to you. However, that should not skew your whole view of the local church. I was saved in a local Baptist church I still attend, in fact, the same one as Tom Butler serves. So maybe you can understand that where I was saved is as important to me as where you were. To me, that is what your posts represent, a cutting down of the institution in which I was saved.

    I do not get involved nor do I care about the politics of the higher ups. If it is ungodly, then that is for them to answer for. My entire world in focused on the local church. We could remove ourselves from the SBC with one simple vote if that was the will of the congregation.
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Of course where we were saved is something we treasure. I would like to think that anywhere a person is saved is something we should celebrate. I would also like to think I would stand up and say something if unrighteousness were present and allowed to continue. If I do not then I am saying to God that I am complacent and do not care enough to confront. I am also saying that I really do not love them.

    If your church stays and says nothing about the known unrighteousness is that not the same as voicing a stamp of approval upon that practice? How would Jesus have dealt with that?

    The national and world view of Christianity does impact local evangelism. If it did not then liberalism should not be of any concern to us. A few years ago I was sharing the gospel with a man and he told me he stopped going to a local church when the national organization allowed homosexuals to pastor. He was a not a Christian. One of his first assumptions was that I supported that too. I spent a few minutes telling him that I did not support that practice. The health/wealth gospel folks have drawn attention that at times needs addressing. If Christians live as real Christians and took a stand against the unrighteous I believe the non-Christians would have a very different picture. If you were to ask non-Christians about what a real Christian should look like I think you would get a very clear picture of what they think and how biblical it is.

    Many years ago some of the churches in the town where I was living took out a two page advertisement about a "faith healer" who was coming to town. They exposed his fraudulent ways to the public and he never came. It also told the city what real Christians stood for. They exposed his teaching by comparing it to what the Bible teaches.

    If we let unrighteousness continue are we not giving our approval of unrighteousness to those who are looking to us for guidance and grow? How have we communicated boldness if we are content to do nothing? We have a very serious problem today in America with a lack of boldness among Christians and society today. How can the church be politically correct and serve God?

    Psalm 10 declares that nations are just men. Your local church and national convention is not God but men who are supposed to be serving God. If that does not happen who will call them to accountability if you refuse that kind action. I hear much the same argument from those who are afraid the share their faith.

    I know there are those who claim their voice will do nothing and they will not be heard. However ask yourself about how many the prophets impacted. It seems to me that God called the prophets to voice His ways and judgments but few listened and many of the prophets were killed. However that does not nullify the prophets voice that God gave them.

    All that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing.
     
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Although there are churches which don't do much evangelism, one of the encouraging things I've seen among Southern Baptist churches is church mission trips. Teams from the local church go all over the world. I'm familiar with congregations who have sent teams to Russia, Romania, several South American countries as well as in-state missions and even backyard Bible Schools in nearby neighborhoods.

    All this while continuing to support missionaries through the SBC's Cooperative Program and the mission efforts of the Association and the State conventions.

    Supporting missions is great, but cannot compare to the blessing of actually participating. My mission experience was life-changing and dramatically affected my perception of how we Baptists present the gospel.

    The point I want to make is that churches which really want to can find mission and evangelism opportunities. I'm not knocking para-church ministries. God has blessed many of them. My main concern is that such ministries be willing to be accountable to a local church that is willing to embrace them.

    This embrace may or may not take the form of financial support, but every congregation should be looking for such opportunities.
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I agree intellectually but pramatically I am not so confident. Don't you think that the latest fads and programs have been an attempt to draw people in but have brought about a decline in church boldness and biblical knowledge? I am afraid that church involvement will decline and parachurch organization involvement will increase. A few years ago the seminary where I graduated from did a survey among theology students and the results indicated that only 1/3 were studying to be pastor and 2/3 were focused on starting or being involved in parachurch organizations. I do not have any answers but it makes me wonder why. Is it part of God's plan? It makes me wonder if the church will decline and parachurch organizations will become more and more responsible for spiritual growth and evangelism.

    What do you think?
     
  17. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Biblically, I am a strong believer in the local church and its ministry. I would be foolish, however, if I totally ignored modernity. There are areas of ministry that didn't exist in the NT. Sunday School is one instance. We cannot deny the influence of Sunday Schools, many of which existed outside the halls of the local church and eventually the local churches realized its importance and accepted them. Missions were broader than denominational fences, and hence foreign mission boards werenon-denominational. This too, was accepted by Baptist churches.

    I believe the local church can continue to function as a place of gospel, teaching, worship and fellowship. The extra-church missions can also continue to function as they do. One does not have to harm the other, but can mutually support each other in Christ.

    I don't have to carry a whip to be a pastor, but spreading the honey does help to attract the bees.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Don't you think that God blesses those who share their resources with those who have little or none? So it seems that the resources are not bound by the limits of each church.
     
  19. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I hesitate to paint all with the same brush. because I know of several quite evangelistic churches, and others that don't seem to be doing much. I will say this. If The Holy Spirit calls one to evangelism, he will have four options options: Seek a local church to which he can be accountable; Seek a place in his denomination's mission organization; affiliate with a parachurch organization; or go it alone. A young man with a fire in his belly is going to look where there is a similar fire. I pray it will be the local church that has the fire, or the Mission Boards (SBC, in this case).

    I'm speaking of an ideal situation of course. But I'm also reminded of Mark 9:38-40

    38John said to him, 'Master, we saw someone who is not one of us driving out devils in your name, and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him.'

    39But Jesus said, 'You must not stop him; no one who works a miracle in my name could soon afterwards speak evil of me.

    40Anyone who is not against us is for us.


    So, of parachurch groups, we might do well to remember Jesus' words to his own disciples: "You must not stop him."
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I agree. You have some good points.
     
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