Are People who "used" to be a Christian still saved?

My Dear Phillip,
I am POB "plain old Bill". You have mistaken me for Ralph before.I'm not Ralph. Also, so you don't take this wrong I'm not upset or angry or anything like that. It's just that when we speak I'd like it to be Phil speaking to Plain old Bill.

 

Oh, my MISTAKE, sorry about that. Wow, I wouldn't blame you if you were not happy! Oh well, just shows none of us are perfect. Sorry though!

 

These people clearly are not "saved". I hesitate to even use the word since it abscures the reality. Salvation is about trusting in God. The question of whether they were ever believers or not is not an issue. The reality is they are not God's people because they do not believe in Jesus. Being one of God's people has nothing to do with who or what you "accepted" in the past. It has everything to do with who or what you TRUST TODAY, namely Jesus.

 

Pete Richert,
What people are you referring? What do you mean when you say "Being one of God's people has nothing to do with who or what you accepted in the past"?
<{{{><

 

What if you get Alzheimers or some similar dementia and you no longer have the capacity to 'continue in the faith'? Are you lost, given over to a reprobate mind?

 

The atheists mentioned in the first post of the thread.

Exactly what I said. There are only two people in the world. Those who trust Christ for their salvation and those who don't. There is no those who "accepted Jesus into the heart" (whatever that means) and now no longer believe their is a God. If you are looking to whitness to someone, it is a poor question to ask "HAVE you accepted Jesus?" Much better to ask, "DO you believe in Jesus?"

 

No Sweat Phil.

 

The historical view of the Church is explicitly clear. Salvation is conditional upon continued belief. The doctrine of OSAS was NOT taught until the 16th century and is not taught today by the large majority of main-line Christian denominations because, upon careful study of the Scriptures, it has been proven over and over again to be a false doctrine.

Apostasy

Described
Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12
Caused by persecution
Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13
Caused by worldliness
2Ti_4:10
Guilt and punishment of
Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22
Cautions against
Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17
Shall abound in the latter days
Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3

Unclassified scriptures relating to
General references
Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6

Instances of:

Israelites
Ex 32; Num 14
Saul
1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18
Amaziah
2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27
Disciples
Joh_6:66
Judas
Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18
Hymenaeus and Alexander
1Ti_1:19-20
Phygellus and Hermogenes
2Ti_1:15

(From Naves Topical Bible. See that work for additional scriptures not included here)

 

The last time I talked to God, He did not have Alzheimer’s disease or any other kind of dementia, and it is my personal belief that God has enough common sense to know the difference between dementia and infidelity to Him and His word.

 

If Christians who become atheists and other kinds of reprobates and apostates were never saved in the first place, then for all we know no one on this message board is saved because we all have the free will to say no to God and His righteousness and to become atheists and other kinds of reprobates and apostates. And if we can not be sure of anyone on this message board being saved until the final judgment, is it not absolutely ridiculous to be reading these post knowing that every last one of them may be written by people who are not saved.

It is my personal conviction that such a theology as that borders on the insane, and it most certainly is not Biblical. Paul, throughout his writings, makes distinctions between those he knows to be saved and those he knows to be lost, and he admonishes us to do the same. If there is no one in your Church whom you are not sure is saved, you NEED to find a Church where there are.

 

You can believe it Michelle, it does not make it true. Nobody but God knows who is in the Book of Life. You cannot pretend to know for sure. At best you can have a good feeling that you are, but certainty, I do not think so.

Corinne

 

That is because you misunderstand what I am trying to say, I have very little in common with Catholics, really, I have lots of trouble with the Catholic eschatology. I said that I believe I am saved as long as I believe in Christ, but the fact remains, as I showed in the quotes by Jesus himself, that it is possible for a believer to stray away and deny Christ. In which case that believer ruins his chances of salvation unless he/she returns to Christ.

That is all I am saying. I know that I am saved because today I am a believer. Jesus himself talks about the possibility of straying away (the lost sheep). If you stray away there is the danger that you will not return.

I also do not think that Christ imposes himself on people. That would mean that he would be a selective God, who only imposes himself on his chosen ones. Somehow it does not sound right to me. The Lord loves everyone (as he is teaching us to) and I believe he will give everyone, not just the chosen ones, at one point or another, the chance to know him and choose him as their God.

Please email me in private if you want: [email protected]

Corinne

 

Matt, I know a little about the Catholics and I can tell you that if you sin, to them you are damned. Well, tell me, just like you think you are saved even though you are still alive and kicking, do you believe that it is alright to believe that you are damned whatever you do if you sin (they strangely seem to ignore the fact that we are under grace)? I have heard on numerous occasions catholic priest say to young children that if they sinned they would go to hell.

Corinne

 

I completely agree with you Bob. It does not help to "claim" to be saved, since it is not up to us to be in the Book of Life but up to God. That is why I say that rather than claiming such a thing, which is impossible to verify, it is better to renew one's pledge to Christ as often as possible, and be certain that this day you are living is a day praised by the Lord in whom you believe. Tomorrow is another day (Carpe Diem), as the Lors himself said, tomorrow every believer will wake up a believer and hopefully go to sleep still a believer. That is all I am saying: let us make sure that this is what happens to us today and tomorrow and all the other days till the end.

Corinne

 

Cindig (or whatever your name is)

I do not wake up in the morning thinking I am going to be defeated !!!! On the contrary I wake up every morning pledging my life to Christ with the clear intention of fighting evil and sinning as little as possible. I do not know how this translates into being defeatist. Is it too much to ask of you to ask you to pledge your life to Christ every day? This is not a defeated life, it is a life where each morning I am ready to combat evil and its demons. If anybody is going to be defeated during my day, it is them, thanks to my faith in Christ.

Corinne

 

Matt, I know a little about the Catholics and I can tell you that if you sin, to them you are damned. Well, tell me, just like you think you are saved even though you are still alive and kicking, do you believe that it is alright to believe that you are damned whatever you do if you sin (they strangely seem to ignore the fact that we are under grace)? I have heard on numerous occasions catholic priest say to young children that if they sinned they would go to hell.

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]I was brought up Catholic so I know something of this myself. As I alluded to in my long post a couple of pages back, the Catholic and Orthodox position on soteriology is very similar to your own - that salvation is something which has to be worked on all the time and can be lost if it is not 'sustained' in that way. It is that concept that is behind the rather threatening quote by the priest to which you refer, and which I heard many a time in various guises in my youth, being educated by priests. In what way, then, do you say that your soteriology differs from the Catholics?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

This is exactly one of the reasons that many Baptists are against socialising too much with the "Assemblies of God" and a lot of non-demoninational churches that believe the same way.

As a Southern Baptist, we believe that when a person is saved, they have eternal life from that moment forward. Not, "May have eternal life, if you don't do bad things."

Again, think about the person who is a good Christian, saved and growing in Christ. He is in a car wreck where his main memory is wiped out? Is he still a Christian although he doesn't remember being one and starts living like the devil?

If this is so, can other factors in a persons life cause them to go off balance and cause bad crimes? Can a Christian do this? I would say, yes, they could, unlikely, but they could.

Again, you set the record straight. God does not have scales where He is weighing our sins vs. our good deeds. We are sinners from the beginning. As long as we live in the flesh, we will still sin. Read Paul, where he says he does things he does not want to do because he is still in the flesh.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." It doesn't say they "shall have everlasting life, as long as they don't commit X number of sins." There are NO other conditions added to "shall have everlasting life." PERIOD. </font>[/QUOTE]Philip

You and I both agree. We are saved. But we are saved as long as we are believers, right? What would happen if you were to stray away and blaspheme against God or totally ignore Christ upon his return (imagine, it will happen to some who will witness the second coming)? Would you still be saved (against your will) then? If you are not a believer anymore, no way can you go on being saved.

You are today in my view in a state of potential salvation, which if this state continues, will be come effective salvation when you die. It is rhetorical. I believe that when you die (generic you), that is when eternal life kicks in for you (which does not mean that you have not been given eternal life before, but means that when you die is when you start enjoying the benefits of it).

Corinne

 

Please re read my Jesus quotes posted earlier here (Scroll up) - He clearly says that it is possible for believers to stray away, in which case, if they are not believers anymore, they are not close to being saved, they have to return to God first.

The tragedy would be if people COULD not return to God after straying away. God loves all people, including those who are lost, either by ignorance or by choice. He always hopes that they will return. Some will and some will not.

But you cannot say, in my opinion, to people who have been born again and then have strayed away, that this is it for them, they cannot return to the Lord. On the contrary you have to go out and fish these people back into the Holy Net, help them believe again.

Corinne

 

Of course not, what a strange thought. Our salvation has nothing to do with our sins, it is only conditional to our faith in Christ and our belief that he is God and the Son of God. Sins don't come into play here.

Corinne

 

Corinne, here's an excerpt from a sermon I preached at my home church on James 2 a few months ago, which neatly sums up the sort of Catholic soteriology in which I was raised:-

"We recently had a well-earned holiday in Croatia and on one of our day trips ventured into Montenegro, which is a very mountainous country, and whilst the coach was winding its way up a particularly scary section of hairpin bends our guide decided to cheer us all up by telling us a joke, which goes like this: a priest and a bus driver die and go to heaven and are met in the usual way by St Peter at the Pearly Gates, where the priest is shocked and horrified to hear that he is to be sent to Hell whereas the bus driver is to be admitted to Heaven, and he protests at this news. St Peter replies “Ah, my son, you see when you were praying in church everyone else there was sleeping, but when this bus driver was doing his job, all his passengers were praying!”

And that is really similar to the question raised by this passage from the Letter of James – which is more important, your faith or your actions? Scholars and theologians, often from different sides of the Reformation fence, have traditionally portrayed the issue like this: in the red corner, we have Paul, arguing consistently for justification by faith alone ; in the blue corner, here’s James, arguing salvation by works. But I do not believe that the message of this passage is at all at odds with Paul’s teaching on the subject; it does however contain a wake-up call for all who would desire to be true Jesus-followers.

Broadly speaking, there are two errors into which Christians can fall with regard to the salvation and associated issues such as grace. The first is the legalistic, works-based error in which I was brought up. I was raised and educated in a Catholic environment; at the age of ten I went to a Catholic independent school in Farnborough which was run by priests who were, shall I say, a bit odd. For instance, we had for Latin this guy called Father Bourne, who was outwardly quite normal but prone to sudden and irrational outbursts of temper. He was also the spitting image of the wrestler Big Daddy, so quite a scary bloke. One of the more frightening moments would be when his huge hands would plonk down on your desk, his face loom up in front of you and he would utter the words “Well, boy, conjugate the verb laborare .” Happy days….

Anyway, the theory of salvation that these guys taught was something like represented by this: you’re born in original sin, and then when you’re a few weeks old, you get baptised, which saves you. So you get a good start, but you can lose your salvation by doing bad things, particularly serious sins such as sexual sins, which can drop you under the 'salvation' bar. But help is at hand, because you can go to confession and get your sins forgiven by a priest, which takes you back up again. But you also need to go to communion or Mass at regularly (at least once a week) to ‘feed’ your salvation otherwise, even if you aren’t particularly bad, you begin to slip again. And so you go on, mostly above the bar, but always a bit worried that you’re not making the grade.

Now, no prizes for guessing that all of us think that model is wrong. The classic evangelical model is: you are born into sin and without Jesus you remain below the bar. But as soon as you acknowledge your sins, believe that He died to take the punishment for those sins, and ask Him to be Lord and Saviour of your life, which means repenting of your sins, trusting in Jesus to save you from them and agreeing to follow Him, you are saved. There are fluctuations as you can see, which I will explain in a minute, but the bottom line you don’t go below the bottom line of salvation.

However, many Christians live their lives, often unconsciously, as if they were still in legalism. They pay lip service to the idea that they are saved freely by grace but still live as if it has to be somehow earned. Like the Unforgiving Debtor in Matt 18, they think they have to keep on working at their salvation and make demands on themselves to do so. They become very legalistic, and their faith becomes too much a matter of what they do or do not do, and less a matter of who they are in Christ.That is the first error.

The second trap into which Christians fall is at the other end of the spectrum: to think that it doesn’t matter where you are above the 'salvation-line', that it doesn’t matter what you do, how often or not you pray, meet with other Christians, do God’s will etc, and this manner of licence is just as wrong as the legalism referred to earlier. Grace is free, but not cheap, and licentious behaviour cheapens grace. Tonight’s Scripture I believe addresses that problem on two levels: firstly, if you profess to love someone, you would expect to communicate with them and do things to please them on a regular basis and, secondly and more drastically, if you don’t, James is saying that he is actually doubting that you are saved, because a saved person would do those things . For instance, I got married to Sarah by saying a few words and signing a piece of paper – in the eyes of the law, we were married. But if I never spoke to her, spent any time with her or did things to please her, people would doubt that we were actually married - and certainly Sarah would! Similarly, if all you do is pray a prayer of repentance, but then never spend any time with God, never try to seek and do His Will, then I would doubt your sincerity in praying the prayer in the first place. It is important to aim as high above the bar as possible in developing and maintaining our relationship with the Lord, and this should flow naturally from the fact of our salvation.

So, James isn’t really in conflict with Paul; he is saying, in effect that, having been saved by grace through faith alone, that salvation should evidence itself in how we live our lives, both to demonstrate our salvation and also to develop our walk with God. Salvation is the beginning, not the end of the story, and we would do well to remember that; James provides such a reminder for us."

Now, compare the Catholic view of salvation with your own, and I believe you'll have a better idea of what I was driving at when I compared your soteriology to that of the Catholic Church.

Yours in Christ

Matt