Are RCC and OC (should through in the Copts just to be fair) Saved?

And what is your definition of "significant academic"? Catholics, I suppose.
Again, I believe you have a biased outlook of history.
No Baptist worth his salt would research history using only one source of information, or one kind of source--revisionist history. There are plenty of Baptist history resources out there. Why do you ignore them over and above Catholic and secular resources that would lead you to a different conclusion.

A simple study of the RCC doctrine in contrast to the Bible would lead you to the conclusion that the RCC is not, never was, and never will be a "Christian Church." Have you listed the doctrines of the RCC and then compared them to the Bible? Have you actually taken the time to do that?

 

What were Martin Luther's 95 Theses, and why did he post them?

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html

 

The points he listed were for debate. However that is a lot of disagreement, nevertheless.

I am not sure what your question was.

Remember, I was alone without any creed or catechism. Try this. Think as an average Catholic would think (or even above average). None of us have any creed (as in Nicene) memorized, nor the Catechism. What we are well acquainted with are those doctrines which affect our daily living.

Living alone, I put myself back into the shoes of my former Catholic self.
I couldn't go to mass. Missing mass was a mortal sin. If I were to die I would go to hell. I had no opportunity to confess my sin to a priest, for there was no priest around. Thus:
1. What was the purpose of the mass, and where is it found in the Bible?
2. What about purgatory: its purpose, where is it in the Bible?
3. What about confession of sin to a priest--why couldn't God forgive my sins, as Christ forgave sins of others in the Bible.
4. I had an assurance of salvation as a Christian; why didn't I have one as a Catholic? Where was this system in the Bible?

6. I prayed (or used to) the rosary. Where in the Bible is praying to Mary? Did anyone pray to Mary in the Bible? Or, anyone else but God and Jesus?
7. As I read the Bible I read that in each and every case a person repented and was baptized, or believed and was baptized. That wasn't so in the RCC. I was baptized as an infant. I was unable to believe or repent. Why baptism as an infant? What was the purpose of that and what was the Biblical precedent?
7. What was the purpose of indulgences? Were they in the Bible?
8. Indulgences were connected to Purgatory? Is it true that I had the power to "pray" someone out of purgatory, or at least shorten their time? Where is an example of that in the Bible?
9. Where are popes mentioned in the Bible.

I just went down a list of those things that affect me in my life. I didn't need a catechism. I was familiar enough with the RCC doctrine to know that these things were wrong and contradicted the Bible.

 

Fellowship is what we as believers have.
Mass correctly put is "the sacrifice of the mass," where every day, all over the world, Christ is sacrificed again and again and again. This goes hand in hand with the "communion" that they celebrate, which the mass is centered around. It is transubstantiation--the sacrifice of the actual blood and body of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of this is heresy.
What does the Bible say:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I had a Bible. There was no apocrypha. I came to believe afterward that the apocryphal books were never part of the canon of Scriptures anyway.
The verses quoted from the NT can in no way support any concept of Purgatory.
Mat.18:32-34--This is a parable. Here is the conclusion and application of the parable as given by Jesus
Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
--The emphasis is on forgiveness. He was teaching on forgiveness. In a parable not everything has literal meaning. His emphasis was that man should forgive. One person forgave great; the other forgave not at all. God showed great forgiveness toward us by sending us his son. Ought not we to show forgiveness to one another?

Luke 12:59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
--He is using the illustration of a justice system. How does that relate to purgatory? It does not.

Mat.12:31,32--What has blasphemy of the Holy Spirit got to do with purgatory? It has nothing to do with it. It is my personal opinion that with a proper exposition of this passage one can see that it is impossible to commit this sin today. There is no mention of purgatory here, not hell, not anything that even relates to the whole concept of it.

1Cor.3:11-15--We all know that this passage refers to the judgment seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with purgatory, but it is an event that takes place in heaven where all believers shall give an account before God. How does it in any way relate to a concept of purgatory?
There is no concept of purgatory in the Bible

It doesn't say to confess your sins to a priest; never; not one Scripture.
Here is what the Scripture does say.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--There is only one person that can come between us and God, and that is Christ himself. He alone is our mediator; not a priest. Only Christ can forgive sins.

We don't do whatever we want because we are saved and have a relationship with Christ, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. However we have this assurance:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--There is no condemnation, none. No matter what I do, I will never be condemned.

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
--My sins, all of them, have been completely removed.

Mary was living at that time. She wasn't dead.

Christ was telling John to take care of Mary after his death. To allegorize Scripture like that is wrong. You can make the Bible say anything you want when you allegorize Scripture. Augustine popularized that method of interpretation. Take the statement literally just as Christ meant it to be, and just as John would have taken it. John certainly wouldn't get the meaning of "church" out of that statement.

Is that what John would have thought? The church had not even come into existence at that time. The explanation doesn't even make sense.

The reason John was chosen:
Other disciples had fled from the scene for they were afraid.
The other siblings of Jesus: James, Jude (authors of their respective books in the NT) did not get saved until after the resurrection. Jesus would not allow his mother in such a dangerous time to be put into the care of an unsaved person even if that person was an unsaved son of Mary.

No, one paid for indulgences. They were to pay for the saints in purgatory, that their time might be shortened.

Paying for someone's soul is one of the corruptions of the church that angered Martin Luther so much.

It is a derivative of nothing in the Bible. The whole concept is foreign to the Bible, which teaches of pastors, not popes, and certainly not a hierarchy of any kind.

 

What does their catechism say:

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."


1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).

--This is no mere celebration. This is the actual "transubstantiation--the turning of wine and bread into the blood and body of Jesus Christ, or a re-sacrificing of Christ Himself. He was once sacrificed for sins. Despite what they say, they sacrifice him over and over again through their doctrine of transubstantiation. It is in their catechism.

It is a parable. You can't make a parable walk on all fours. A parable is an earthly story meant to teach an earthly truth. The truth is forgiveness. Look at the context:

Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
--The emphasis is forgiveness. Jesus is teaching on forgiveness. Don't draw doctrine out of the parable that is not there.
Throughout the NT, there is an emphasis on forgiveness. It is one of the characteristics of a Christian. What on earth does this have to do with purgatory? Please explain. It is a parable--an earthly story teaching a heavenly truth about forgiveness. There is no mention of purgatory.

If a man dies and goes to hell, his sin will never be forgiven him. Not now, not in any age to come. This is just common sense.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--In what age will his sins be forgiven him?

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--In what age?

The scene is in heaven. It takes place after the rapture. All believers will be judged for their works, whether good or bad. Look at Scripture:

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
--There is no purgatory here. Our works (not our sin) will be judged. This event is called the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
--No purgatory here.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--No purgatory here; only our works are judged.

Where does it say to confess your sins to a priest? Where?
I quoted you Scripture that there is only one mediator between man and God, and that is Christ himself. The Bible does not contradict itself. Furthermore, it also says:

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
--We have physical fathers; not spiritual fathers. We are commanded not to call any man "father." God alone is our Father.

Here is the verse in its entirety and not taken out of context:
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
--The context is prayer.

James 5:16 Confess your offenses to one another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effective, earnest prayer of a righteous man is powerfully effective. (WEB)
--Those things that offend we need to let one another know that we may pray more effectively. The Bible teaches that if we have offended our brother we need to go to him and reconcile ourselves to him. This is the teaching here. There is no confessional. It is a time of prayer. Effectual prayer is when you know what to pray for. Every believer is a priest before God. There is no such thing as a class of priests.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
--We have a great high priest--Christ Himself.
Each of us are priests, and therefore are able to come right before the throne of God, boldly, just as the high priests of the OT were able to do.

You answered your own question. Baptismal regeneration is secular and not valid. Baptism does nothing for a person except get him wet.

No it does not. It will not change you one iota. That is a superstition of the RCC. The only thing that can change you is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which one receives when he gets saved by trusting in Christ and his atoning work on the cross.

But it is not Christianity in practice. Sacraments have little to do with Christianity. How will keeping sacraments get anyone to heaven?

I don't find that it is accurate with history only with the RCC history.

 

I empathize with you. I know what you have been going through. All of my extended family are Catholic, and are devout Catholics. You are fortunate in that they are at least willing to talk to you about it. My relatives are not willing even to discuss the matter. They won't allow the subject of "religion" to be discussed. They are Catholics, but they don't want to try to defend it. I have even given them the opportunity to bring a Catholic priest and will discuss it with him. Nope. They don't want their religion to be confronted or exposed in any way.

Things like the trinity are a no-brainer. The teaching is in the Scriptures--1 John 5:7 being the clearest statement of the trinity in the Bible. Even without that verse it is not difficult to demonstrate that each person of the Godhead is deity. As far as words are concerned we don't have theology (the study of God) in the Bible either. I hope they do study about God. There are many words we use that are not in the Bible. It wasn't written in English (originally).
But the concept of purgatory is not in the Bible. One simply must take the Scriptures deeper, and show that the context of each of the passages used are not in any way speaking of purgatory. There are only two places mentioned in Scripture that are forever: hell which is ultimately thrown into the lake of fire, which is eternal; and heaven. There is no concept anywhere where believers must suffer through fire. Only unbelievers will suffer in hell or in any hell-like place. Purgatory is just not there. You have the opportunity to show them the Scriptures. I don't. Use that opportunity to the best of your ability. God bless you as you do.

 

No, it can't even be inferred; not from a proper exegesis of Scripture.
The trinity is taught; not inferred.
It is taught clearly that God is one; that there is only one God (Isa.43:10,11)
It is taught clearly that Christ is God (John 1:1,14; 10:30ff; Acts 20:28; etc.)
It is taught clearly that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:1-4)

In Matt.3 we see all three of these persons present at the Baptism of Jesus: Christ, physically; the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, and the voice of the Father from Heaven. But there is only one God.

All three are mentioned in the Great Commission ..."baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
--But there is only one God.
The trinity is forcefully taught throughout the Scriptures. It is not inferred. It is taught.

There is not a single reference that teaches purgatory when the reference is taken in context. Not one. One must do a lot of mental gymnastics in order to make a verse teach purgatory. There is no such concept taught.

Here is something to think about. The person that believes in purgatory does not believe that Jesus died for their sins. Why? Because if Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sins, there would be no need for purgatory where one must be further "purged" or further pay the penalty for their sins. It is a denial of the all sufficiency of the blood of Christ; a denial of the full atonement of the blood of Christ. A belief in purgatory is a denial of Christ paying the penalty for our sins.

 

I make absolutely no claims to being any Professor.

And I already answered the OP on another thread, about 2 weeks ago.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1404403&postcount=2

And I have answered this before, as well.

What real purpose would multiplied redundancy serve?

Or are they now giving 'extra credit' for additional redundancy???

Ed

 

The atonement, in and of itself, brings us into a right relationship with God. Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2). We accept that sacrifice, and the atonement is made for our sins, the penalty is made and our sins are forgiven. After that the Holy Spirit dwells within and begins to change us. A Christian will do good works because of the work that the Holy Spirit that resides within me. It is not I, but God that works in me to do good.

No one. And no one can ever be until we reach heaven. We will always have this old nature. Paul said, the things I want to do I don't do; and the things I don't want to do are things I do. He spoke of that continual battle with sin that we all have daily.

Sin always has its consequences, always--whether before salvation or after. If after salvation, one doesn't lose their salvation, only their fellowship with God. 1John 1:9 was written to believers. We come to God on a daily basis that we need to confess our sins to God (not man) and God, who is "faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." That is a promise to believers. Note that our sins, concerning salvation have already been put under the blood and have already been forgiven. Thus this pertains to our daily walk with Christ.

We are always accountable for our sins. There is always forgiveness for sin. A believer can be chastised (Heb.12), or face some other consequence in some other way. God knows. His works will be judged. He will not burn; but his works will go through the fire. Some will burn; others will be refined. Some will be destroyed; others will last for all eternity. Some will be lost; others will be kept. All believers will enter into heaven immediately--they already are in heaven. There is no question about that. There is no purgatory here. If you are doing something for Christ, but with the wrong heart attitude (for example) you can be sure that that "work" will be burned and lost, and that there will be no reward handed out for that work. You will still be there. But there will be no reward, no crown for that work.

Lay your treasures up in heaven, where moth and rust does not corrupt.

 

I like how well you've laid this out. This is good, and I would agree 100%.

 

Just to comment, I don't buy into the concept that Purgatory can be found in the Bible either, but in regard to the Trinity, obviously as you pointed out the Trinity is taught in that God is one and Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit. The problem though is that Holy Scripture isn't at all clear on exactly how the 3 persons of the Trinity coexisted. Which is why some bishops in the early Church challenged what had always been believed...

For instance Arius in around 300AD held that the Son [Jesus Christ], while divine and like God, was created by God as the agent through whom he created the universe, and thus that there was a time when the Son was not.

Another instance was Nestorius, he taught that the Virgin Mary gave birth to a man, Jesus Christ, not God the Logos. The Logos only dwelt in Christ, as in a Temple (Christ, therefore, was only Theophoros: the "Bearer of God.") Consequently, the Virgin Mary should be called Christotokos ("Mother of Christ") and not Theotokos ("Birth-giver of God").

So sure the Trinity concept is found in Holy Scripture, but exactly how the 3 coexisted wasn't exactly clear, as noted above. Thus through the Councils, the Church reaffirmed what had always been taught regarding this issue from the beginning.

In XC
-

 

There are many things that are not clear. Over and over again I here from the J.W.'s: "The reason we don't accept the trinity is because we can't understand it." Is that a reason not to accept a doctrine? I may not be able to understand how electricity works but I believe it does.
There are many things in the Bible I don't understand. But if the Bible teaches them, then I accept them by faith.